ďťżRedefining True Workplace Happiness and Contentment
Timestamp: 00:00
Brad Eather: Hello and welcome to the Selling's Creative Podcast, a podcast exploring creativity's role in sales and business. I'm your host, Brad Eather, a digital communication sales strategist helping business owners and sales teams deploy digital communication strategies.
The nature of sales is a funny one. The gratification of a closed deal is often short-lived, and our minds quickly shift to the next opportunity. It's this pursuit of constant progress that forces us to reflect on our past performances, but not necessarily on ourselves. Have you ever noticed that when things are going well outside of work, your sales results generally take care of themselves, but when things aren't going so well, your sales suffer too?
Today's episode is all about assessing success in things that aren't tied to our sales results. We're going to be exploring what it means to be happy. My next guest is a happiness researcher, a TEDx speaker, a soon-to-be father, and an advocate for helping people and workplaces master the skills and science of happiness. Welcome to the show with a big smile, Declan Edwards.
Declan Edwards: Brad, I appreciate it, man. Thank you for the great intro.
The "I'll Be Happy When" Trap for High Achievers
Timestamp: 01:22
Brad Eather: No worries at all. Now Declan, I think for many people, the question of happiness is quite a complex one to face. I've shared a bit of my backstory with you and the fact that I haven't always been happy. Naturally, I've spent a lot of time considering this question. Quite honestly, I don't think I found an answer until I discovered what it meant to be truly unhappy. What led you to be so curious about happiness in the first place, and how would you answer the question: what is happiness?
Declan Edwards: Yeah, look, those are big questionsâparticularly that question of what happiness is. As a species, we've been arguing about that for about three and a half thousand years. I'm going to try my best to add a concise answer to that debate today.
Before we get to that, I'll leave a little teaser for people listening and share my answer to the first question: what got me interested in happiness? The answer is because I spent so long chasing other people's definitions of happiness. I spent a lot of years being what I now look back on as a human chameleon. I was really good at being what I thought others wanted me to be. I achieved a degree of success from that, but I realized quite early in life that the success felt empty because it wasn't connected back to my own definition of happiness and success.
What matters to me in life? What is a happy life on my terms, not someone else's? It wasn't until I started looking inwards and evaluating happiness by my own definition that things changed. What does it mean to be intrinsically motivated by my values and my character strengths, rather than extrinsically motivated by rewards and accomplishments? As you mentioned, that extrinsic focus is very common in sales.
Once I started asking those bigger questions and getting support from amazing mentors and coaches who spent their careers studying the skills and science of happiness, I realized I wished I had learned this earlier. I wished everyone learned it sooner. That drove me to study positive psychology, which is the scientific understanding of what makes life worth living.
Science of Happiness in the Workplace: Contentment vs. Achievement
Timestamp: 03:45
Declan Edwards: I've dedicated over a decade of my career and life to studying the science and skills of happiness. Over that time, I've grappled within myself with what a happy life means on my terms. Where I've landed is that happiness for me is when I am simultaneously deeply content with who I am and where I am in life. It's a steady-state contentment. It's about having a good relationship with myself and being grateful for the life I currently have.
At the same time, it means having something meaningful that I am working towards. That is your traditional, dopamine-driven, future-focused happiness centered around accomplishment. That's still a big part of my personality. What I've noticed in myself is that if I lean too heavily into that future-focused happiness, I get stuck in the "I'll be happy when" trap. But if I focus too much on cultivating happiness only in the immediate moment, I feel a little bored and stagnant.
For me, happiness is a little "happiness cocktail." My recipe is equal parts current happiness (gratitude and contentment) and future happiness (achievement and accomplishment). When those come together, I'm living a pretty happy life.
Brad Eather: Yeah, I relate to that because, as I said at the beginning, I haven't always been happy. I went through a similar journey where I had to self-assess what I wanted out of life. For me, contentment is the baselineâthat's what I'm aiming for now. Happiness is everything else around it, like taking those moments to be present and finding joy in them. It's been a real path of self-reflection to establish those benchmarks and realize my actual benchmark is contentment. Once that's there, I can focus on everything else.
Declan Edwards: I love that. Where you and I have landed is not all that different from what the Greeks were talking about three and a half thousand years ago. There was the hedonic happiness school of thought, which argued that the secret to a happy life is to maximize pleasure and minimize pain. This was the high-achiever lifestyleâthe "sex, drugs, and rock and roll" approach. A lot of our modern capitalistic society is still built on that idea: if you achieve enough success, you will get happiness as a byproduct.
On the other side of the table, the Greeks argued for eudaemonic happiness, which translates to contentment, contribution, and connection. It's a slower type of happiness, but it creates a steadier baseline that doesn't come and go as quickly.
They argued with each other, but for meâand it sounds similar for youâI feel like the girl in that old El Paso taco commercial where they're arguing over hard shell or soft shell tacos, and she asks, "Why don't we have both?" Then the whole town throws a fiesta. I feel the same way about happiness. Why can't we have contentment, connection, and contribution as our baseline, and then top it up with excitement, joy, accomplishment, and achievement? It doesn't have to be one or the other. We can bring these expressions of happiness together.
How Digital Distractions and Dopamine Destabilize Employee Focus
Timestamp: 08:00
Brad Eather: When you were talking about Greek philosophy, my immediate thought went to how complex the world is today. We're no longer just dealing with the problems right in front of us. We have information, screens, and people trying to get into our consciousness at all times of the day. You mentioned dopamine as one of those things we chase. How do you view happiness through the lens of digital media, where we constant get dopamine signals like notifications popping up on our phones? How do we manage that to bring ourselves back to the present?
Declan Edwards: Dopamine is cheap and easy happiness. We can get it fast, free, and fleeting these days, but it disappears quickly. There is a concept called hedonic adaptation, which means that the thing that brought us a little boost of happiness brings us less happiness over time.
You can test this yourself: go get your favorite ice cream, and take the first teaspoon really mindfully and intentionally. Really savor it. You'll think, My happiness is so high, this is the best thing ever. By the time you're at your fifth or sixth teaspoon, it's still enjoyable, but the enjoyment factor has dropped. It's amazing how quickly we adapt.
We see the same thing with people's careers and sales targets. They say, "I want to do $5,000 a month in sales." They get there, feel really good for a moment, and then they start hitting that target consistently. All of a sudden, it doesn't feel like an accomplishment or a joy anymore; it doesn't trigger the same dopamine factor.
If we only build happiness on dopamine, we are setting ourselves up for a diminishing return on investment just by nature of how our brains work. The only way to counter it is to keep upping the anteâmoving from $5,000 months to $10,000 months, or moving from one scoop of ice cream to ten. We are always chasing the next thing if we rely solely on dopamine.
So much of our modern society and advertising is built on giving people a quick fix of dopamine. Part of social media's addictive nature is built entirely on it. What I encourage people to do is to be highly mindful of where they are receiving passive dopamine hits.
The best thing I can recommend is to go into your phone's notification settings and turn off notifications for every single app except for phone calls. The reality is, if something urgent is happening in your life, someone will call you. That is the only thing your phone needs to interrupt you for. All the other apps can still be there, but without notifications, you get to decide when to use them. You decide when they're important and when to tap into that dopamine, rather than you being the product.
Shifting Corporate Training From Technical to Human Skills
Timestamp: 12:12
Declan Edwards: The second thing I recommend is putting intentional effort and time into cultivating the other neurochemicals and hormones that aid happiness. Rather than just dopamine, focus on how we nurture oxytocin, which is driven by connection, genuine relationships, and human-to-human moments.
How do we stimulate serotonin? Through mindfulness, calm, present moments, and trying to slow down in a busy life and career. How do we get endorphins? We exercise more. If we put more focus on those and intentionally limit where we're getting blind dopamine, the happiness cocktail in our brains becomes much more balanced.
Brad Eather: You mentioned the phrase "the skills of happiness." Hearing you talk about balancing oxytocin, dopamine, and managing all these moving parts sounds quite challenging. I didn't fully understand what you meant by developing the skills of happiness initially, but it sounds like what you just described is part of it. How do you define learning the skills of happiness, and how do you practice them?
Declan Edwards: Let's look at this in the context of any skill, because you're right: I just mentioned all these scientific terms which can seem intimidating if you haven't learned them. It's just like if I were to say words like arpeggio, treble clef, or semiquaver. That's scary to someone who has never studied music, but someone who knows music understands it completely. Or if I talked about a pivot foot, a two-foot layup, or a reverse layupâthose are intimidating skill sets for someone who doesn't play basketball. But if you know the skills and science of basketball, it becomes manageable.
It is exactly the same when it comes to managing our minds and emotions. The more we learn about the skills and science of happiness, the more equipped we feel to manage our happiness effectively.
When I talk about the skills of happiness, I am specifically referring to what have historically been called "soft skills." We are trying to rename them "human skills" or "happiness skills." Let's look at the contributors to those neurochemicals I mentioned. Regular exercise requires discipline and habit-building skillsâthose are human soft skills. It requires intrinsic motivation rather than just extrinsic reward.
What about connection with other people? That requires nurturing empathy, communication, and emotional intelligence so we can pick up on other people's emotions as well as our own, and manage them effectively. Balancing the neurochemicals that lead to happiness requires you to work on these human skills.
Hard Skills vs Soft Skills Training for Leaders in the Era of AI
Timestamp: 15:29
Declan Edwards: I saw a Harvard Business Review article a while ago stating that for most people, 90% of their professional development and learningâthrough primary school, high school, university, trade school, and on-the-job trainingâis dedicated to technical skills to make them better employees. Only 10% is spent learning the human skills that make them better human beings.
That is insane to me. We need to completely flip that on its head. I dream of a world where 90% of education and time is spent learning the skills that make us better human beings, topped up with 10% on our specific chosen craft. I think we would have a much better world. Hell, I'd even settle for 50/50. But the fact that only 10% of our time, energy, and resources goes into learning how to be a genuinely happier and better human being is wild.
Brad Eather: Soft skills are so important, especially right now with all the distraction surrounding AI. I actually think the effective use of AI is not a matter of technology, but rather a matter of developing the soft skills that allow you to communicate more effectively. You mentioned empathy. How do I translate empathy into communication through AI so that the output lands more empathetically? The people who are going to be highly effective at using AI are not the ones chasing the technology, but the ones chasing those soft skills. That's how you make something meaningful at the end of the day. Technology is just technology, but we are dealing with humans, and human nature hasn't changed. Have you personally been using AI or exploring those concepts within your context?
Declan Edwards: Yeah, man, 100%. We've been using AI at BU Happiness College, the organization I run. We were pretty early adopters; I think we've had a professional subscription to ChatGPT for about two years now. We've set up specific agents and channels within it to help with different tasks, which has radically expanded the amount of impact we're able to make.
But to your point, we always tell our team: start with human, end with human. It has to start with human skills and end with human skills, with the AI helping in the middle. We even named our AI. I gave myself a day off after this one because I was so proud of it: we called it HAPI (H-A-P-I), because we run a happiness college. So now we say, "Hey HAPI, can you help me with this?" And it replies, "Sure, I'm happy to help out."
To your point about needing human skills in this era of AI, we have historical precedent for this. If we go back 100 to 150 years to the Industrial Revolution, over 50% of the workforce at the time was employed in what we call "work of the hand"âmanufacturing, factory labor, or agriculture. Machinery and the Industrial Revolution came along, and today, only about 3% to 5% of the population works in work of the hand. It was a dramatic drop. At the time, everyone worried that all the jobs were going to disappear. While some industries did vanish, we created a hell of a lot more newâand arguably betterâjobs off the back of the Industrial Revolution. We got people out of dangerous factories, gave them safer, more secure roles, created more wealth, and paid higher salaries.
From there, we entered the era where the majority of the population engaged in "work of the head"âknowledge specialists like lawyers, doctors, and strategists. Specialty knowledge became the main commodity.
I believe we're now entering another industrial revolution where AI and machine learning are doing work of the head better than we can as humans. I cannot compete with the sheer knowledge that AI has, and neither can anyone listening to this. It's only going to get better. A lot of jobs will change as a result, but my hope is that we enter the next era of human development where the majority of the workforce is employed in "work of the heart"âwork specifically related to human skills, compassion, empathy, and connection. That is going to lead to a lot of good in the world, we just need to go through the messy transition point in the middle first. The people who know how to leverage AI for the work of the head, but bring the heart element to it, are the ones who will thrive.
Shifting Executive Focus and Budgets to Employee Experience
Timestamp: 19:57
Brad Eather: I love that phrase: work of the heart. Doing a bit of background research on you, I saw your thesis was on how happiness is defined and measured in workplace settings. We've covered what happiness means at an individual level, but I'd love to get into what happiness means in a workplace environment where there are multiple stakeholders involved and it heavily ties into workplace culture. What does happiness in the workplace actually mean, and how do you bring it all together?
Declan Edwards: I'll use two frameworks that came out of my master's thesis to answer this. The first framework dictates that there are three distinct parties we need to keep happy if we want a thriving workplace. When I ask audiences who we need to keep happy, people immediately say customers and clients. Yes, customer experience and client happiness are critical to a successful business.
Then they say employee experience and employee happiness. Yes, that's vital. A lot of workplaces fundamentally do not have a business if they don't have people, especially in service-based industries where your people literally are your business.
The third party consists of key shareholders and stakeholdersâthe board of directors, executives, or people who own stock in the company. We need to keep them happy as well.
If we look at those three, for the last 100 or 150 years, the priority order has been to keep shareholders and stakeholders happy at all costs, even if everything else falls apart. This leads to a focus on short-term gain. Many workplaces are falsely incentivized to focus on short-term wins over long-term progress because they have to report quarterly performance targets to their directors. Fundamentally, you cannot build a better society or a better world in three months.
We see this short-term thinking in our political leaders too; most democracies aren't thinking about the impact of a policy 50 years from now, they're thinking about how to get re-elected in three to four years. We've incentivized keeping shareholders happy above all else.
The second tier has historically been keeping customers happy, because customers are fickle and have more global choices than ever. Finally, if there is any time, budget, or resources left over, companies look at employee happiness.
What my research showed is that this model is completely backwards. I found examples of organizations that inverted the order entirely. They realized that if they upskill, support, and elevate their people to create incredible employee happiness, those employees naturally leave a highly positive impact on customers and clients. We all know what it feels like to walk into a business where the staff fundamentally hate working thereâyou can feel it as a buyer.
Because the customers are happy, they refer more people, return for repeat business, and don't churn. Additionally, the company lowers its overheads because it isn't replacing staff constantly, reducing recruitment costs, mental health leave, and psychosocial hazards. Consequently, the shareholders and stakeholders end up incredibly happy because the company is more profitable.
My challenge to leaders is to look at those three parties and ask: what order are we currently prioritizing them in? The best way to check is to look at where you are allocating your budget, time, and energy. If an organization does not have a dedicated employee experience budget and strategy, it is not top priority.
Calculating the Financial ROI of Employee Engagement
Timestamp: 24:40
Brad Eather: Just to clarify, for smaller businesses where resources are finite, an employee experience strategy can feel difficult to implement. Where was your study focused in terms of employee headcount?
Declan Edwards: It can feel difficult, but it is still entirely accessible. My study was a meta-review and meta-analysis of studies conducted across English-speaking, Westernized, capitalistic countries over a 15-year period. The headcount in the businesses studied ranged anywhere from five employees to tens of thousands.
The way to make it scalable and accessible regardless of size comes from a Gallup study. It found that if you reinvest an average of 2% of your payroll back into the employee experience, you get a massive return on investment. For every dollar spent on average, a company gets $2.67 to $3.27 back in reduced costs, lower overheads, higher performance, increased sales, better productivity, and lower mental health leave.
If someone announced there was a stock on the market that returned $2.67 to $3.27 for every dollar invested over the next year, everyone would run to buy it. That is what the research says about investing in employee experience and workplace happiness.
Of course, there's a cap; you can't just move your entire budget there. The optimization sweet spot sits around 2% of payroll. To keep the math simple, if your annual payroll across your staff is $1 million, you should look to invest about $20,000 a year specifically into improving the employee experience. That might go toward learning and development, wellbeing strategies, or burnout prevention. When you're already paying a million dollars for your biggest assetâyour staffâwhy wouldn't you put 2% back into optimizing that asset to make them feel and perform better? That concept scales whether you're paying $100,000 or $100 million in salaries. Once you pass 3%, the data shows a diminishing return on investment.
The 2% Payroll Budget Rule for Employee Experience Strategy
Timestamp: 27:18
Brad Eather: Well, that is an actionable strategy for anybody in charge of a financial budget.
Declan Edwards: Yeah, and to make it easier, we actually built a free budget calculator that workplaces can use, and I'll send you the link for it. To get highly specific, the real data recommends spending 1% of payroll for casual or part-time staff, 2% for full-time staff salaries, and 3% for leaders, executives, or key assets who would be incredibly difficult to replace if they left. For ease and convenience, you can average it out to 2% of your entire workforce, but the free calculator lets you plug in your exact number of part-time, full-time, and executive staff alongside rough salaries to spit out your exact annual employee experience budget.
Moving Past Vibe Checks: How to Measure Workplace Happiness
Timestamp: 28:41
Brad Eather: There is a bit of a corporate clichĂŠ about throwing pizza parties for employees to make them happy. I presume that's not what you're talking about. You've mentioned training your employees; what are some practical, outside-the-box things businesses can invest in to improve staff wellbeing?
Declan Edwards: I'm a little biased here because this is exactly what my team and I developed off the back of my master's research. It's so outside-the-box that remarkably few organizations actually do it: measure workplace happiness. What we measure, we can manage. It astounds me how many organizations run their people and culture strategies basically on "vibe checks." They say, "It feels good," or buy leadership training simply because a salesperson pitched it to them. When I ask why they chose leadership training or if they know it's the specific gap impacting their employee experience right now, they say, "No, but our competitor did it, so we should too." It's just blind faith and guesswork costing millions of dollars.
Off the back of my thesis, we built evidence-based, fully anonymized staff surveys to measure what we identified as the five pillars of workplace happiness. If these five things are done well, it leads to a fantastic employee experience, a great flow-on effect to the customer, and happy shareholders.
What Are the Five Pillars of Workplace Happiness?
Timestamp: 32:12
Declan Edwards: The five pillars are:
1. Workplace Wellbeing: This can be broken down further into seven types, such as physical, social, and financial wellbeing.
2. Engagement: This is the one companies have talked about measuring for 20 or 30 years via annual engagement surveys. But that is only one-fifth of the puzzle; if that's all you're doing, it's not enough.
3. Culture: This includes things like psychosocial safety, transparency, trust, vision, mission, and values.
4. Leadership: This has a massive impact on the preceding three. If leadership is equipped and set up for success, wellbeing, engagement, and culture thrive.
5. Resilience: This is where we look at burnout prevention, adaptivity, and whether a workforce can navigate disruptions and bounce back during hard times.
If you want to do something out of the ordinary, measure these five pillars effectively. It allows you to see your gaps, identify your strengths to leverage in recruitment, and track whether your financial investments are working.
If you take your 2% payroll budget and spend it all on pizza parties three times a year, I promise you won't see a change in those five metrics. If you invest in leadership training, you can explicitly measure if those leadership numbers move to ensure a return on investment. If they don't move, the training wasn't good, and you shouldn't buy it again. When we partner with workplaces at BU Happiness College, we look at the evidence first. If you aren't measuring it, you're just gambling with your budget.
True Resilience vs Stubbornness: How to Improve Employee Productivity
Timestamp: 36:03
Brad Eather: You mentioned resilience as one of those pillars. For salespeople, the word resilience is often worn as a badge of honor. We view ourselves as a brick wall that shit gets thrown at until we finally win something via cold calls. Before the podcast, you mentioned a Harvard study by Shawn Achor showing that salespeople who learned the skills of happiness were 37% more effective. I wonder how you challenge the traditional notion of resilience and how happiness skills play into more effective selling?
Declan Edwards: There is a very common misconception about what resilience is. We often think of it exactly as you described: staying strong through miserable times. That's not resilience; that's closer to stubbornness. True resilience is the ability to adapt well in challenging times. It means being able to change your approach and bring different skill sets to the table. It's not survival of the fittest or the strongest; it's survival of those most able to adapt.
Regarding Shawn Achor's phenomenal work in his book The Happiness Advantageâwhich I highly recommendâhe found that when salespeople went through a multi-week immersion to learn and practice the skills and science of happiness, they produced 37% higher sales over the following year compared to a control group.
At first glance, 37% sounds massive. But when you sit with it, it makes total sense because so much of sales relies on human skills. Do you have empathy? Can you communicate effectively? Do you have the emotional intelligence to connect with the person on the other side, understand their needs, and form long-term relationships? Those are the skills of happiness, and they are essential for selling in a way that is ethical, human, and enjoyable, rather than sleazy and gross.
Sometimes people ask me, "Does money buy happiness?" Based on the research, I tell them that happiness skills buy you money. They make it statistically more likely that you personally, and your workplace, will do better financially.
Creativity as a Character Strength and Novel Problem Solving
Timestamp: 40:47
Brad Eather: You previously mentioned to me that there are four steps to skill development that can be applied to anything, whether it's basketball, music, or happiness. From a happiness perspective, what are those four steps?
Declan Edwards: Every skill you've ever learned in life, even something as simple as driving a car, follows these four steps:
1. Unconscious Incompetence: This is the "ignorance is bliss" phase. You don't know what you don't know because you've never been exposed to it. For example, I've never pondered how good I would be at playing the cello, so I like to think I'd be pretty good. Who knows?
2. Conscious Incompetence: This happens when you actually pick up the cello, it sounds terrible, and you realize, Wow, there is a lot I don't know here. My hope during any keynote or podcast is to lovingly but forcefully push people from stage one into stage two regarding their happiness. I want them to realize there is a lot they might not know how to do when it comes to managing their minds and emotions. I call stage two the "shit phase" because you realize you have real work to do.
3. Conscious Competence: This is the practice phase. You're getting the hang of it, it's starting to work, but it still takes conscious focus, effort, and consistency.
4. Unconscious Competence: This is embodied wisdom. The skill becomes second nature and you do it without thinking.
The reason I started a happiness college was to speed up the journey from stage one to stage four through tools, accountability, coaching, and community. We love seeing "stage four moments" from our members. Someone might tell us, "I noticed my stress spiking the other day, and before it took over, I proactively practiced some mindfulness, prioritized self-care on my calendar, and had a difficult conversation to set a boundary." Those are four distinct human skills that a year prior, they didn't know how to practice at all. Now they do it automatically. Can you imagine a workforce where people practice empathy, compassion, and mental wellbeing completely as second nature? That's the ultimate goal.
Brad Eather: It reminds me of a previous podcast conversation I had with Erin Fairman about leadership and motivation. She noted that to be motivated, a person needs autonomy, mastery, and purpose. Having the skillset to identify what you need in a given moment and bring yourself back to center aligns perfectly with that autonomy piece.
We have come to the end of the podcast, and I'm really excited to hear how creativity plays into happiness from your perspective. What is your definition of creativity?
Declan Edwards: When you sent me this question before the podcast, I sat with it for a bit. In positive psychology, creativity is recognized as one of the 24 universal character strengths. We all have a top five unique "signature strengths" that come second nature to us. In full transparency, creativity is nowhere near my top five. I had to flex some learning and reflect on it.
Where I landed is that creativity is the ability to find novel solutions to things. Whether that's a novel concept for visual art or solving a business problem through a fresh lens, if you can hone the skill of seeing things in a new and novel way, that is creativity by my definition.
Brad Eather: It's really funny because when I started this podcast, I wanted to challenge the artistic stereotype of creativity. People who inherently don't consider themselves creative consistently arrive at that exact same conclusion when they take the time to consider it. It simplifies the concept and provides guiding frameworks.
Declan, where is the best place for people to get a hold of you if they want more information about the happiness college?
Declan Edwards: If you're a podcast person, we relaunched our podcast, How to Be Happy, a few months ago. We put out weekly episodes teaching the science and skills of happiness, alongside interviews with our college members and workplace partners. You can follow How to Be Happy on any podcast platform.
To find me on social media, you can search for Declan Edwards, or simply search "That Happiness Guy"âI found out recently I pop up under that name on nearly every platform!
At the time of this recording, we are four days into an experiment where I have redirected our entire marketing budget away from social media ads and toward positive social and environmental impact. For every new follower or subscriber we get on YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok, and the podcast throughout the month of June, we take the money we would have spent on advertising and use it to protect one square meter of rainforest. As of this morning, we've already protected 228 square meters of forest in just four days because people want to get behind it. If we still hit our growth targets without buying traditional social media ads while protecting the rainforest, I'm just going to keep doing this forever. I invite everyone to subscribe so we can make a positive impact on your behalf.
Brad Eather: You've taken marketingâwhich is traditionally seen as creativeâand flipped it completely on its head, which is highly creative in its own right. I wish you the best of luck with that endeavor. Everybody, go get behind that. Thanks for listening to the Selling is Creative podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode, make sure to like and subscribe. In the meantime, happy selling!
