Brad Eather (00:02.094)
Hello and welcome to the Selling is Creative podcast, a podcast exploring creativity's role in sales and business. I'm your host, Brad Ather, a digital communication sales strategist, helping established businesses and sales teams sell on social. Now, before we start, I just want to acknowledge a small milestone in the podcast history. We've officially reached 10 episodes, which is, surprisingly puts us in the top 25 % of podcasts.
Over that time, if you've been following along, we've learned a hell of a lot from some really fantastic minds. And I feel really humbled that within our first episode, Selling Creative has been acknowledged by Australian Business Journal in the top 10 business podcasts to watch out for in 2025. So for those who have been listening along, I just want to say thank you. And if you haven't yet subscribed to the channel, do so now so that you don't miss out on any future episodes.
My next guest is a very well-traveled sales trainer, training over 10,000 sales professionals across 37 countries. He's a wearer of orange hats, a three times author of which we'll be talking about his most recent book today, Ethical Selling. And more recently, he's had a brief moment of virality as a parody rapper. So welcome to the show, Fred Copestake
Fred Copestake (01:28.603)
believe that in the order of importance you've put wearing orange hats above writing three books. That's funny, it kind of sets the tone. I can see where we're going now.
Brad Eather (01:38.818)
Yeah. So now Fred, I mentioned in the intro there that you're quite well traveled. And I just wanted to ask you, how many times have you been to Argentina?
Fred Copestake (01:53.209)
Argentina. one, two, three, four, think once, well, that once was a rugby ref. So first trip there was nothing to do with business. was there to ref rugby. And then definitely one with the chemicals company, one with the flavors company. think two of the chemicals company. So yeah, I think, I think four.
Brad Eather (02:01.226)
Alright, I'm not...
Brad Eather (02:18.254)
Well, believe it or not, know we're sales podcast, but I actually want to talk about the first time that you were there as a rugby referee, because both you and I are both passionate rugby fans. And the thing that I wanted to ask you about is the refereeing part, because if anyone follows rugby union, there's a lot of rugby league fans in Australia.
But it's an interesting role, the role of a referee in rugby union They interpret laws. There's no rules in rugby. and they talk almost exclusively through captains. So what I wanted to ask you is what skills or lessons do you think that being a referee has taught you about communicating to leaders or leadership in general?
Fred Copestake (03:09.559)
it's interesting. Actually, when you were talking about doing that in Argentina, something that struck me or reminded me of was that the Spanish word for referee is dirigir which is actually to direct. So you direct a game because you're applying the laws to make sure that the stuff that needs to happen is going to happen. Which was, which was a learning I got, I got from there. And actually now you've asked the question, it's probably a similar sort of thing.
that that's what we're trying to do is that we're communicating in a way which is directing people. We're sort of giving them the flow. We're giving them the path. We're taking them to the place which is going to be best for all concerned. So whether that's the players, spectators, whoever is involved, the stakeholders, let's use business language. It's probably that. we never really actually considered it like that. So yeah, brilliant question, mate. Pretty question.
Brad Eather (04:06.258)
I, I, I love, mean, I've been on the other side of the referee. I've let's, let's say, I certainly not wanting to talk back, but, I really find that the nature of rugby in terms of the team cohesion, I haven't found it in any other sport. And I think that it's largely to do with the physicality of it. The individuals that, you know, everybody plays their own role. without that role.
You can't exist as a team. You're never going to win if you don't have the big guy out front that's willing to take the ball up or the speedy guy out in the wing who's going to be able to run past someone. and I dunno, I always see parallels between rugby and business. wondering what you've got to say about that.
Fred Copestake (04:52.531)
Yeah, I think that's fair. People are there to do a role, they'd form a particular job, but if you go off and just do your own thing, the team won't be successful. You're contributing to that. You should all be pushing or heading in the same direction and on the same game plan. And yeah, guess we sometimes see in business that people are like, well, I've got my way doing something, I'm going to play like this.
the rest of team's not on the whole thing will fall apart. So yeah, you've all got to be definitely on the same page. And I'm still playing in that style,
Brad Eather (05:31.116)
Yeah, great. Let's move on to what we've come to talk about today, which is, the, I want to talk today about ethical selling. It's a book that you've read. It's a written, written. It's a book you've written. I had the pleasure of reading it recently and I just wanted to start with a few observations that I made, while reading it to sort of like high level stuff. so you book to me.
Fred Copestake (05:36.051)
Nah, I talking about a rugby all day. I'll be happy, happy to do that.
Brad Eather (06:01.312)
sort of, I think one of the core purposes of it is to challenge the stereotype of the sleazy salesperson. And one of the key takeaways that I think was, it's really more about having as a seller, having self-awareness and having a propensity to continually improve in your sales practice, almost so that you're aligning your own personal values.
to the work that you're doing. And what I mean by that is shifting your focus from the short term to long term relationships. And another thing that I really liked about the book is that within that lens of ethical selling and sort of holding those self values, making them come through and work is that...
the book supported almost like a history of sales, borrowing from certain methodologies and different texts and applying little pieces of things within the context of what we've called ethical selling. I really thought, I mean, for me personally, if there's any sales people out there that...
haven't read a sales book before, because I'm sure there probably are. I think it's probably a great place to start because it'll give you a really nice framing. then beyond that, you've also got a whole bunch of resources that if there's something in particular that you like, you can go out and find it. So I wanted to talk about this this stereotype that you challenging the the sleazy salesperson I'm calling it that.
Fred Copestake (07:53.683)
Yeah, no, that's fine. No, it's yeah. And then you're right. It was written. It was written for salespeople to challenge themselves, but also to put out there to customers that actually salespeople aren't like that. Um, and then the premise is actually pretty simple as to why go down the route of ethical selling. Uh, one customers like it to the alternative doesn't So, so apart from that, there are two main reasons you can actually talk to people are going to be more open to that.
Brad Eather (08:04.024)
Yes, yeah.
Fred Copestake (08:23.127)
way of operating. But if you're going to try to do something else, all this kind of funky stuff and Wolf of Wall Street and all these silly things we see, it's not effective. It's not best practice. So yeah, that's exactly what the whole thing was about, but coming at it from both angles. So it's opening the eyes to customers that, there are some or many people who do want to work like this. Look out for them, work with them, and start binning off the people that aren't operating like that.
Brad Eather (08:50.286)
It's a real relationship driven book. It's all about relationships. It's all about putting the customer first and methods to do that. And I think, I don't know, I think that some people struggle.
Salespeople struggle. Well, let's, let's frame it this way. So many salespeople just fall into the role and they fall into the role with that same, uh, perception of what a salesperson is, which, you know, and they either fall into, what, what they think a sales person should be without actually taking ownership of the role and finding it's very self-directed sales.
It's not something that you learn at university. Yeah.
Fred Copestake (09:40.051)
Yeah, I think I think that's right that people people fall into this caricature if you like, is that, I'm in sales. I have to behave this way. The stuff I've seen on the films, you know, the dramas, you know, again, it's in a film or a drama for a reason. It's dramatic, causes reactions. And yeah, I think I think that's where the sleaziness comes from. It's from people who aren't trained in professional sales. So it's quite funny. You see a lot of people say, oh, sales, I'm not going to do it. It's sleazy, sleazy, sleazy.
push comes to shove, they have to do it. They have to do it for their business. And what they end up doing is sleazy stuff. And they'd be devastated if they realized that's what's happening. But it's because they've rejected wanting to learn how to do it. They end up doing stuff in a way that just comes across as a little bit crap. Whereas somebody who gets it and really wants to study this and do it in a way which is successful because it lands better customers will operate in a far less sleazy.
far less sleazy way. So, yeah.
Brad Eather (10:42.175)
What's your favorite thing about selling?
Fred Copestake (10:45.815)
make a difference. I'm not such a naff answer. It's it's like scripted, that's what it says to say here. but actually if you're doing it well, you're making the difference for somebody, you know, whether it's me selling sales training, which makes a difference to somebody in the way they go and do it. Yeah. It makes their life better. Or you're selling something which is solving a problem. It is having an impact. There's an outcome that somebody's looking for. Brilliant.
I suppose if you're just pushing stuff that people don't want or need, then you're not going to feel that are you? You wouldn't even know what I'm talking about. But if you're genuinely doing that, way better.
Brad Eather (11:19.886)
Yeah, cause I mean, me, yeah, for me, think like it's forming those relationships in between the outcome. Like that's the bit that I, that I really like, you know, working together with someone in a way that feels like you're moving together. And then at the end of the day,
You turn around, you give each other a high five and you look back and you go, we're friends now. Do you know what I mean? Cause we've just been through a journey.
Fred Copestake (11:57.063)
Yeah. Yeah. Kind of like, you know, well, the customer's a hero, aren't they? So we haven't got a journey. Customers are hero. They're the person in the sort of the known coming into the unknown and we're going to guide them through as a guide, mentor, whatever, and come out better side, the other side, they're bigger better for it So yeah, there is, there is this kind of journey thing. And that's why the issue, if we're not positioning ourselves to do that. so that's why I talk about collaborative selling a lot. That was book one.
Didn't call it that for some ridiculous reason. Should have done, but hey. But I concentrate on the partnering skills, which are the bits that we bake into the way that we operate. And I wanted to stay true to that. But yeah, it takes two to tango. And that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to set up to collaborate, co-create, and to do that stuff together. And if you find yourself in a position where actually the other party isn't doing that, then things become very difficult.
You'll find yourself misaligned, you'll find someone uncomfortable, you won't want to work with them. And it's quite fair to qualify them out and say, no, not going to work with you because you're not my type. I can't do a good job here.
Brad Eather (13:08.588)
Hmm. Cause well, I'm just sort of riffing at the moment, but qualifying out quite a foreign concept to a lot of salespeople. And I guess it's something else that sort of came up in your book is for me is there's always a battle between the seller and the organization, the tools that an organization gives to a seller to enable them to be an ethical seller in this case. Right.
What's, let's take it back to the training aspect. What's your thoughts on the role of the organization to train and the role of the seller to proactively go out and seek training.
Fred Copestake (13:54.547)
Yeah. I mean, there's some strong opinions on this, aren't there? And that some people think that it is totally down to the salesperson. And to a degree it is in that they have responsibility for the growth mindset. Well, I mean, they have it all they don't, guess. Um, but should they be put in the hand in the pocket to pay for the training? I'm not so convinced about that. Now that there's a ton of free resource out there anyway. Yeah. If anyone wants to go and buy the book. Yeah, please go for it. Um, but.
I think really the organization should be understanding this is how we operate. This is our way. It is collaborative and then we're going to stick by this. So we're going to give you the tools, the techniques and all the support to go out and do that to the best of your abilities. Because it's reflecting on them ultimately, isn't it? So I do think the organization has got to take some responsibility in this.
Brad Eather (14:43.415)
Mm.
Brad Eather (14:48.686)
Cause I think from like, if someone wanted to approach ethical selling, I don't know, you can tell me otherwise, but my thoughts on this were that you were really pitching the organization to take over an ethical selling approach in some respects, as well as an individual salesperson. Would you, would you agree with that?
Fred Copestake (15:09.891)
Yeah, no, I think, I think that's fair. because ultimately they have responsibility for people, isn't that not part and parcel of an ethical employer that, you know, you're looking after people and you're, you're, you're setting them up to do the very best. So yeah, I am saying, Hey, look, sales leaders, this is a, this is a way of operating. And by the way, if you go into it, you'll find you're doing a ton of this stuff anyway, most likely.
If you're not, wouldn't even pick the book up, would you, to be fair? So, you know, I kind of preach it to the converted, but then just highlighting that these are the things that you are doing. And here are some little shifts that means you can do it even better. Well, why are you not using that, doing that to help you people do that? You know, and by the way, that's you mentioned it earlier. I did take a very deliberate tactical technique based approach on this, because what I found was that.
Brad Eather (15:38.35)
Mm.
Yeah.
Brad Eather (15:57.837)
Yeah.
Fred Copestake (16:08.279)
Most people who are talking about ethical sales, we're talking about principles, we're talking about values, we're talking about morals, and they were going off up into the clouds in these high-faluting conversations, which actually people on the ground, I say don't care about, but don't really get, it's not applicable. They can't use it straight away. They've got to translate that. What does that mean for me tomorrow when I turn up at work? So I went, well, okay, look, here's some kind of.
codes and principles, but let's not linger on that. Let's go into do this, do this, think this, I like this, try this, and really set out quite prescriptively, if you like, ways in which you can apply it.
Brad Eather (16:52.814)
Cause there's things that when I was reading the book, you know, I identified as traits that, or things that I was doing myself, but I think it's really nice to have that framework to go, wow, I can recognize that that thing that I'm doing now actually fits within this and I'm missing that. You know, like that's, that's a really powerful way to look at it. And I think, I think, it's done a really good job of outlining some of those things.
Fred Copestake (17:22.515)
Yeah. Well, thank you. Cause that was the whole, that was the whole objective was to do that. Because like I say, you wouldn't be picking that book up if you weren't curious about this and to help people recognise that, Oh, I do do that. And I do do that deliberately and consciously. And I know it's ethical or actually it didn't recur to me. was such a good thing to do. All right. I'll, I'll do a bit more of that and Oh, I can add this to this to make it even more powerful. Cause I hadn't even considered to do that. I didn't even know it was a thing. Right. Okay. There's my big kind of next action step.
Brad Eather (17:54.286)
So let's talk about...
So sometimes we rush to close and what we're talking about in ethical selling is more of a collaborative long-term approach. And I can understand why people are rushing to close because the way that sales organizations are set up month to month, target driven. What are your thoughts about?
Maybe some of the bigger issues around the way that that structure functions and how workplaces, like I understand that there's going to be businesses out there who have shareholders and things like that. How do you navigate that in terms of like giving the salesperson the space to actually own the relationship and not just destroy it at the end of the month when they need to get the money in the door.
Fred Copestake (18:54.503)
Back to my original answer. What does a customer want and what works? So if you're saying, well, we can't do that because we've got these targets to hit. Well, how you going to hit your targets if it's not what the customer wants and it doesn't work? It's crazy. You you're setting yourself up on a fool's errand there. yeah. Well, well, well, that's not true. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. Well, now you've got a beliefs thing going on that your way is better to pressure them to push them, which you probably just push them away. And
Okay, fill your boots, go for it. But look in, you know, what I was writing about based on the research and understanding, know, this world of sales, people will respond better to this way of operating and the tactics, the tools, know, that those things that you do will get you where you want to be eventually. And it is at that pace. Now, if you want to apply your pressure for your own good, hang on a minute. That's a massive trust buster.
Are we saying the trust is key to sales? Because, you know, I talk about the trust equation in the book where we've got self-orientation in the equation of being the denominator, which kind of, if you, it's all about you, it pulls the way in which you build trust down. So guess what? You've set yourself up literally to fail.
Brad Eather (19:53.218)
Mm.
Brad Eather (20:12.174)
Mm.
Fred Copestake (20:13.203)
But some people just won't believe this because of the pressures or because they're not actually having to do it on the ground or whatever it is. Well, you know, have a look at yourselves.
Brad Eather (20:24.044)
I think like sales is a pressure cooker environment, right? And that's part of it. That's part of it is the internal pressure that's put on people. and sometimes I suppose a way to describe it could be feeling like a rat in a cage, you know, like you want to do, if you're the kind of person who wants to do right by the customer, you're confident that's what you're working towards with the customer is going to get a result at the end of the day.
Fred Copestake (20:52.625)
Yeah.
Brad Eather (20:53.486)
But the internal pressure is something different. What, what advice would you have for a salesperson that is trying to do right by the customer, feeling that internal pressure and feeling like that rat in the cage.
Fred Copestake (21:11.851)
I mean, have a serious look at why you're in that position and look, it's kind of easy to say, isn't it? From a theoretical point of view, but let's go back to our rugby because of drawing an analogy here, rugby example. It's like the coach is saying to you, right, what I want you to do is X, Y, Z. And you're like, well, X, Y, Z is illegal. And I'm probably going to get caught doing this, give it a bunch of penalties away. And we are going to lose the game. And ultimately that's going to lose me my job because you won't take the responsibility because you'll say your game plan was brilliant.
So as the player you're have to go, hang on, this is crazy staying at this place. Because I'm gonna lose my job ultimately, because we're gonna come bottom of the league, because we're spending all the time in the slim bin and people kick you three points every 10 minutes. So why would I want to do that? Because it's going to reduce my value as a player. ain't gonna get picked international, I'm not gonna get a new job when we get relegated. Hang on a minute, this isn't right. I'm being set up here.
Brad Eather (21:51.576)
Yeah.
Fred Copestake (22:09.989)
not doing that, not playing that game literally.
Brad Eather (22:12.782)
Hmm. So hold your ground for, for one of a better word and, and, and express that cell internally, almost express the value that you hold, give you reasons, that kind of stuff.
Fred Copestake (22:25.523)
You could do that and say, Hey, hang on a minute. It's those are a big coach. I don't, this ain't going to work because, if the coach is going to go, no, this is my game plan. I'm the coach do as you told. Well, I'm gonna find your team. I got a phone to your agent.
Brad Eather (22:41.773)
Yeah.
Fred Copestake (22:43.763)
Yeah. And it, it, it does sound quite idealistic and principle, but there are elements that there are elements of principle in, in ethical selling. yeah, some of that's going to have to be start at home.
Brad Eather (22:55.694)
Yeah. So talking about where we find ourselves today in an online world, maybe traditionally a buyer would have really taken someone from very little understanding and through the whole process. Now buyers have the ability to do research themselves and not just the ability, they are doing research themselves.
Um, how are you seeing, I mean, you've got more perspective on this to me. You've been around doing this for a lot longer than me. How, how, do you feel the market has changed from the customer's point of view and how does, how does sellers need to reposition?
Fred Copestake (23:43.557)
Yeah. I mean, you're right. one stage salespeople were the custodians of the information. You know, they'd rock up and they'd be like, Hey, you need to talk to me because I can tell you these things. I have the things. The customers are going to know the things. know your things. I know you can be competitors things as well. Cause I've got internet access. I've looked at your website. Yeah. And now you're turning up being a website or don't cause websites are better being websites.
Brad Eather (23:49.422)
Mmm.
Fred Copestake (24:09.563)
Yeah. So that'll be my first kind of bit of slightly facetious advice. It's like, don't be a bloody website because websites are better. Now what a salesperson can do better than a website is bring the insight or perspective to the conversation and help people to think. become something of the sense maker. Yeah. So the pure information is out there.
Brad Eather (24:30.424)
Mm-hmm.
Fred Copestake (24:33.107)
But the research they can do to find out these angles that they can then use in a conversation and use those interpersonal skills, those sales skills, questioning skills to help somebody get their head around something. That's when the customer was saying, wait, come here. I want to talk to you. Cause every time I talk to you, you help me with stuff. You help me make sense of something. But if it's like, you know, I talked to you once, but you just basically turn catalog pages or your website. I'm not going to do it anymore. So.
Brad Eather (24:52.622)
Mm.
Fred Copestake (25:00.967)
The salesperson has got to understand how to do that first up and then position themselves and make sure it's very clear to people that that's the way they operate. Clear in the way that the prospecting so that they reach out to people, but you know, very much in your world, it's the way that they position themselves through all their kind of the online communication that this is what I'm about. This is how I do stuff. So kind of sharing those insights and I think about this stuff and that's why I'm an interesting person to speak to.
Brad Eather (25:24.686)
Mmm.
Brad Eather (25:30.871)
Yeah
Fred Copestake (25:30.929)
That's where I'd start to the difference.
Brad Eather (25:34.318)
Cause for me, I think that it's, it's absolutely right. There is so much information out there that if I am in market at that point in time and I start doing the research, I'm going to be inundated. So my role as the seller, if I meet them at that moment is to make sense of it all and actually discover their problem and make sense of their problem in the context of everything.
that really means that the onus is on the seller. And I think that this is maybe a trait that's really changing from the sales, sellers perspective, that we need to be constantly educating ourselves on the market, on selling techniques. We need to be constantly learning about our customers, about their markets, about...
everything so that we can actually have a holistic context to position their problem. Because without that, we're back at the features and benefits selling and you're no good to anyone. So I really think that maybe the selling role is becoming more difficult and it's not just about outreach anymore. It's way bigger than that.
Fred Copestake (26:47.411)
You're bang on in that. as a salesperson, we've got to put ourselves more into the customer's world than ever before. Now I'm not sure that we are preparing sales people to do this because we keep giving salespeople product training and talk about ourselves and give them presentations with maps of the world, dots all over it and like logos and stuff like this. So sales people don't, but they aren't in the best position to create a value proposition. as I like, when I'm training people, I'll call that value proposition.
create a proposition because they want to talk about themselves. So when you know how to put yourself into the customer's world, the sort of stuff you should be researching and figuring that is what will be affecting them. Not going, all the intent data says they're looking at my website saying they might buy something like you're an order taker. Different, different worlds. That's not why I get involved with people, but it's like going and looking at, right, what, what are the external drivers? What things are happening in the outside world, the big wide world.
Brad Eather (27:19.822)
Hmm.
Fred Copestake (27:45.427)
regulatory, economic, social, political, environmental, competitive, technological respect drivers, which could be then having some kind of impact on their organization. They've now got to respond to this. How are they going to respond? What are they likely to be doing? What's the objective they're going to have? And what challenges might that be causing them? Because they don't know how to, they haven't got the resource to it. And so what will they then be measuring to see whether they've done that or not?
If you've got this information, you're in a really strong place to go and start opening conversations with people very, very early in the buying process. mean, right at the very beginning, not when they've gone, right, yeah, I've got a specification. I know pretty much what I'm buying. Just tell me the bloody price with you. Oh, no, let me give you a tell me the price. Tell me the price. You know, that's stupid conversation that we keep talking about. And people keep saying, no, don't tell them the price. No, I feel the price. Tell them. We go right back to here where it's like, whoa.
Brad Eather (28:32.237)
Yeah.
Fred Copestake (28:39.409)
Hang on a minute. We're now talking about something that either I was totally aware of, but now I you're aware of it as well. Hmm. I like to your jib. I sort of had thought about, but it's nice having somebody thought about it or actually the way in which you've interpreted isn't quite right. But I can see you do your homework and you're the kind of person I want to hang out with because you do think like this. That's where we should be prepping people and getting them better rather than, yeah, intent data.
get in touch with somebody, top 3 % of buying whatever it is. That's selling for me, going right back early and kicking off those conversations.
Brad Eather (29:13.58)
Yeah, I mean, cause like
I think that that lends itself back to the curiosity piece being constantly curious about the world around you because not only does that give you multiple different entry points to begin a discussion, but it does set the groundwork to guide decision making for your, for your customers. If you can understand where they begin their journey to where they want and like whether it
For an example, whether or not the conversation starts at a technology solution, the answer to the problem or the actual solution might not be technology related at all.
Fred Copestake (30:00.293)
If your tech, if your conversation is starting a technology solution, you're potentially too late. Reason I'll say that fairly confidently is that they've done work on this already. They've done it without you. Cause you're now surprised that, look, they got to talk about technology. That's what I do. They've either done it with someone else or they've done it on their own. If they've done it on their own, they've got pretty strong opinion of how this is going to be and what they're looking for. So you're not trying to reverse them back up and change their thinking. Good luck with that one. Yeah. Or.
Brad Eather (30:05.638)
Hmm.
Fred Copestake (30:29.491)
Actually, we know what we're doing. We've got this brilliant, uh, salesperson that's helping us think all the way along the process here. And now look, just cause we need to, we need to go out and get three prices. We go with them. It's got their speck all over it. And you'll be fighting and getting all, then probably get done excited. I'm on an RFP. They love me. They love me. They must think we're really good. They've seen all the stuff I say. No, too late. Maybe a little bit black and white on that, but in principle, it's pretty much how it goes.
Brad Eather (30:58.478)
Because I think like this whole idea of a journey in terms of the sales journey, can seem confusing, right? What are we doing as a sales person? But I think that often when, you know, putting it into this partnership perspective, you don't need to know the answer to go on a journey. You can discover it on the way together, you know, as long as you sort of know the general direction that we're heading towards, there are going to be challenges. It's how you manage those challenges in between.
and how you overcome them together to get to an end result. And I mean, that's the nature of complex selling, right? Yes, you have to manage different stakeholders and stuff, but that's the nature of a journey. You're not, we're not selling, it's not transactional selling.
Fred Copestake (31:43.707)
Yeah. And then we can pretty much predict that journey. It's like, know there's some kind of stimulus, which is going to create some kind of change, which means they're going to work out what is they need to do. So then they'll start to think about what that solution might look like. They'll probably put, start to put some ideas around what the budget is going to be. Which is then means they're going to go, right. Are we going to spend that to solve this? Yeah, we are. Right. Okay. In that case, let's go out and start looking for this. Put together a list of the actual buying criteria. Let's start to look at the potential suppliers. Let's reach out to them.
And this is everyone gets dead excited. It's like, look at what's gone on before. But none of that's a massive surprise. That's just the way people buy stuff. So recognize that and go, right, I want to be involved here early on in that sitting alongside, as you say, guiding them, helping partnering, collaborating, co-creating, because two heads are better than one. And they might actually be on this journey to buy something they don't normally buy.
So they're quite inexperienced. You can say you can slow them up. You can say actually, no, don't jump to that. Hey, we've got to do these things first. Or it could be something they're very expert in buying. So if you're not actually lining up on that journey anyway, it's like, no, we know what we're doing here. But there's this stuff of people coming in too late. It's very common. It's not something people like to hear. They hate it. That bit I just said about if you're, you're getting all excited about the RFP and they think it's cause they, you think it's cause they like it. They'll be like, nah, no, you don't understand Fred.
Brad Eather (32:53.24)
Mm.
Brad Eather (32:57.998)
Mm.
Yeah.
Fred Copestake (33:08.84)
In our case, in our world, with our company, that doesn't count because they do like us and they do want to buy from us. So, okay, fine. Believe that if you want.
Brad Eather (33:18.808)
Which, probably takes us back to this, this idea of value, right? Because I think that, you know, if you're talking about that situation, let's reframe it back to like the beginning. I think a lot of sellers think that the value was in the product or service is the same thing. Product, selling features and benefits. The value is in the product, but how would you go about realigning value so that you, as a salesperson take ownership of that value?
sort of, I suppose it's got a lot to do with some of the stuff that we've just talked about, but creating value.
Fred Copestake (33:53.734)
Yeah. Yeah. Just don't go to any product training. That I'm not, again, I'm being facetious with this, but that's the problem. It's why do sales person saying, well, the value in the product is this. Why? Cause that's what I was told. I've learned that. So I'm going to say that. Cause the people I trust, cause I work for them telling me that's what I've got to do. And it's like, well, actually no, that's not what value is. It could be actually, I'm being a harsh. Could be because some of the training might be more about value, but
There were a really interesting phrase I heard a bit back. called Mike Wilkinson taught me this. We were on a trip somewhere and we were chatting about value as you do because we're sad. And he said, well, of course Fred, value is a mystery.
Hey, Mike, what you on about? Value's a mystery. I said, I don't understand. He said, well, no, think about it. Because value is defined by customers, it's like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder. You don't know what it is. Actually, they might not. They don't really know how to define this. They haven't quite worked it out. So our mystery, us and the customer, is to try to solve this thing to what it is actually that's useful for.
for them in their context and to then start to put stuff together that's going to help them to get that. Now it could be that the training you've had will be that typically customers we talk to have this problem. So if you go and tell them this, they'll go, brilliant. Yes. Mind reader. Not always though, because in a more complex sale, there's more stuff going on. It's just too simple to rock up and say, right, yeah, what you need to do is this then. I was telling him.
Brad Eather (35:32.782)
for me that approach, that approach when someone's already qualified this type of business, they're missing the journey part. That's the opener, that's how we get them, but then we drop off from there. Anyway, don't...
Fred Copestake (35:46.163)
And that's why you got to a hundred call calls a day times a hundred salespeople to try to hit enough of them that go actually, yes, you are right. And you've got the right time. Fine. That a way of selling. Yeah. Numbers. It is numbers. Whereas if you're saying, well, actually we know this kind of organization, we look at this kind of stuff and we're going to put our resource into working this stuff out. And this will mean that we're on this journey together to get to the point where we operate.
I mean, again, this is my background. It's complex sales, it's large engineering solutions, it's this kind of stuff. More kind of the SaaS stuff. I'm not as expert in and that's why they worked to that particular model. I don't get bothered about, be honest. So, I'm only qualifying that to people who are violently disagreeing with me and saying there's some massive organizations that work this way and it's dead effective. And yeah, they are, cool.
Brad Eather (36:23.15)
Mm.
Brad Eather (36:33.966)
I mean, we could talk about...
Brad Eather (36:43.938)
Yeah, because well, I mean, I want to, I want to, I'll just say it out front. Like if you, if you're on LinkedIn a lot, the SaaS salespeople are the loudest in the room and you should remember that that's the organizations that they're living in. They're very different from most people. And for me personally, I feel like if LinkedIn is your go-to learning, you really need to pay attention to
Fred Copestake (36:45.639)
Good for them.
Brad Eather (37:12.448)
Always pay attention to who you actually learning from. Be very intentional about the people that you follow and why they're putting the content out there. Because if you adopt the wrong sales approach based on somebody that you're following that is not aligned with your objectives or your company ambition, it's an absolute, you're going to kick yourself in the foot.
Fred Copestake (37:39.066)
Well, you put it out there. I'll 100 % agree with you that that's what's going on, you know, and a lot of the advice that they're giving is right for them in that environment, but it's only one small part. LinkedIn is massive. It's about 90 % of the LinkedIn in the real world. It's about 1 % of the type of sales that are going on. So be a bit careful about some of this stuff and some of the very repetitive, quite boring arguments that are put forth. People are talking about permission based openers all day. It's like, well,
Brad Eather (37:55.182)
Mm.
Fred Copestake (38:08.115)
go out and do something better instead, is what I would say to majority of salespeople. You don't really need to know that stuff. There's other things that you would benefit from understanding, which would help you engage with customers earlier on better. So yeah, that's what we go for. There are some people that do say some good stuff, but it's disproportionate to what is probably useful to people that are selling anything other than that particular sort of, well,
That's what we do. And that's how it does it. If it isn't like we can't really sell it. Well, most people actually got ways in which they can configure how they do stuff and build a whole value proposition around that. They're like, well, that's what we've got. That's what we sell. have to find those people are remarking now because of the returns we need to get at this moment. That's why they're selling that way. Okay, right. It's correct for them. The game to play for that particular sport, you know, other people will be playing a slightly different game. And so the
Brad Eather (38:49.198)
Mm.
Brad Eather (39:02.467)
Yeah.
Fred Copestake (39:05.62)
the advice that you're getting isn't really helping with that.
Brad Eather (39:10.062)
So we've gone on a bit of a tangent there, but I want to refocus. Value is a mystery. Value is a mystery. You wrote about it in your book and it really struck a chord with me because for me, kind of reframed discovery. There's like some sort of treasure that we're not asking you a bunch of questions. We're trying to dig and discover what is valuable to them rather than...
Fred Copestake (39:12.071)
Yeah, good on them.
Brad Eather (39:39.83)
repositioning it into the context of, you know, we're just trying to find out how they, their problems are relevant to us.
Fred Copestake (39:47.891)
Yeah. And the way in which you ask questions, are they self-centered in the BANT. Really? Yeah. But you're authority timescale. Good. Right. Now I know. Is it, right. If I get enough information here, can say, ha ha, I guess my solution is really good. Or is it no, I'm here to help you get your head around something. If I ask questions in a certain way, they're going to drive your thinking. And if your thinking becomes clearer.
I actually added value in that conversation before we even start talking about my product for solution, whatever it is, you're like going, wow, it's like scales of drop from eyes. can start to see where I need to go on this. This is awesome. Thank you. Right. No, let's continue the conversation. And I think this is a very different take on what questioning is for. Certainly compared to when I first started selling, because it was BANT. It was.
try to get the information to then go, well, guess what? Look what I have here. Yeah. It's, no, you're helping me get my head around stuff. Yeah. You're giving me clarity around this and that is massively valuable in itself. I think we sometimes miss that.
Brad Eather (41:03.042)
Yeah. Cause I, again, like that, the salesman as a website, you know, that website can pop up in anywhere in that sales process. And you need to make sure that, you know, if you're qualifying them in, you don't want to be, just regurgitating what they already know effectively. want to be positioning yourself and guiding them through the entire way. I think at some point in the, in
in all of this, you know, we've siloed different sales functions and made a machine out of it. And people have lost sight of the end to end process, which I am very excited about because I think it it's coming back the other way where teams are getting smaller and effective sales people coming to the top because they can take ownership from beginning to end. And in my opinion, that's how it should be.
especially in our world where it does no good to the customer to pass them on to another team and another team and another team.
Fred Copestake (42:15.251)
They don't really like it, do they? I think everyone probably knows that, but says, yeah, but you know, for efficiency, efficiency for who? Self-centered again. No problem with teams, but yeah, when you have a salesperson who's kind of, know, account manage, whatever you want to call them, they have access to all the teams in the organization, which they pull in to do certain stuff at certain times as people are moving through. But they're the sort of one who's taking.
Brad Eather (42:17.036)
No. No.
Fred Copestake (42:43.629)
from the very beginning and understanding what's the customer actually looking at trying to solve here or what could they be looking at trying to solve? And then when they bring certain people in, probably as we get a bit more speccy, a more techie, and then we're probably actually bringing some financial specialists in and then we might even be bringing the tech guys back because, you know, we kind of looped back around stuff. I mean, to be fair, that's all I've ever known. So I'm biased towards that.
Brad Eather (42:50.894)
Mm.
Brad Eather (43:10.441)
Mmm. Yeah.
Fred Copestake (43:12.561)
It's all the organisation I work with, massive percentage of the organisation I with tend to operate that way. It's just how they do it.
Brad Eather (43:18.86)
Hmm. Well, I think like that's how the majority of B2B businesses operate. Most... Yeah.
Fred Copestake (43:25.254)
It's just a disproportionality of LinkedIn where it's like, well, doesn't everyone have SDRs? It's like, Doesn't everyone record calls to make themselves better? No. What do mean? They should do. They don't have meetings online. They can't. Well, they should do. Oh, come on, Customers don't want to do that.
Brad Eather (43:43.278)
Well, at risk of going down a rabbit hole again, I think that organizations today, whether or not, know, recording conversations for the sake of improving. Sure. You know, but you absolutely, I, my personal thing is that I think you should absolutely be recording conversations now to leverage insights, whether or not it doesn't need to be to improve your outreach.
Fred Copestake (44:07.131)
Yeah.
Brad Eather (44:10.656)
It's to harness insights for future conversations.
Fred Copestake (44:14.163)
Yeah. Yeah. I was just referring to a conversation had recently where someone couldn't understand that some people don't record conversations because the conversations aren't recordable because they're not had on a phone or over a screen. And they were just like, huh? They didn't get it. They honestly didn't get it that people like meeting boardrooms or restaurants or factory floors or laboratories or kitchens, pubs. They didn't get it. And I thought I was actually quite sad.
Brad Eather (44:44.014)
Hmm.
Fred Copestake (44:44.187)
Not, not you sad bastard type thing, but just like, you know, that you haven't seen the bigger, wider world where there's a lot of really cool stuff going on.
Brad Eather (44:56.002)
I think that's kind of where I'm sitting at the moment. That's sort of the piece that I'm trying to fill. the, the tools required to, when I look at sales, I'm looking into the future. named my business tomorrow for a reason. but like anything, anything that's worthwhile is informed by the past.
And I think that we're at a sort of converging point where people are trying to make sense of the world that we're going towards tomorrow and the world that we've just come from. And absolutely, things like that still exist. We're still having conversations and probably since COVID, we're probably at the point now where we're having more conversations around a coffee shop than we have in the last five years. So we still need those skills to jot down a...
a quick note and understand and remember things. But then we've also got these amazing tools that we can put in context.
I, so I go on LinkedIn. And so when I was reading your book, you know, I was positioning a lot of what you were saying in terms of the digital media context. And one of the things that I align with is that if you're going to be selling on LinkedIn, you can't afford not to be ethical because as much as I hate the word personal branding,
When you are communicating in any capacity online, it needs to be from a position of authenticity, otherwise you're gonna be smelt out like a rat. And I think that...
Brad Eather (46:43.436)
without getting too much into sort of starting the buying cycle of their content and putting yourself out there on a platform like LinkedIn almost forces you when you're doing it well into an ethical approach. And it really positions you to continue that journey throughout the entire sales cycle from the very beginning because you can't,
You can't afford to be anything other than, I don't want to say the best version of yourself, because you don't need to be the best version of yourself, but...
Let's put into perspective. There's a lot of LinkedIn's a very happy platform. It's full of congratulations rather than Instagram where there's a lot of people trolling, for example. But there's a reason for that. It's because people are aware of the context and because you're aware of the context, need to, there's people that it's quite complex.
what's happening from a psychological point of view. But essentially we're all just cheering on each other and you see people that actually get it and putting themselves on video and learning how to communicate what they truly know and what they believe their things, their value is. It comes back to the value piece as well. Like there's nothing else to talk about on LinkedIn other than positioning yourself as part of the value equation.
Fred Copestake (48:19.563)
The way I see it, it's do you come across as someone I want to talk to? Because you look like a decent person and what you're talking about is something that's going to help me in what I'm trying to achieve. So that's why when you read stuff, you think, that didn't happen. That's not true. I literally don't believe you. So actually I'm just going to stop reading everything I put now. Yeah, is one.
Brad Eather (48:25.614)
Mm.
Brad Eather (48:39.566)
Mmm.
Fred Copestake (48:47.475)
So from that content point of view, but also you mentioned video. That's where anybody can come across as reasonably knowledgeable about something now. Yeah. Yeah. That would not just ask chat GP to write it. Not as chat GPT put in it's a slightly different tone of voice, whatever. Yeah. And you'll come across, Oh, that person probably knows that sort of stuff. I don't think if you, if you produce a cheat sheet every day, that works. I don't believe you know all that stuff, Yeah. You've got chat GPT and Canva.
Brad Eather (48:49.966)
Mm.
Brad Eather (49:14.062)
Mmm.
Fred Copestake (49:18.259)
But when you're going to video, if someone, if you're just holding your phone up and it's like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, think, actually that person can speak about it. I've seen them do it. They clearly do know it. It's not just they've recycled a ton of stuff, which you know, pretty much anybody could have written to be honest, which is why I know people find it hard, but I would say try to get over that, that kind of that camera shyness or whatever that initial reserve.
Brad Eather (49:29.006)
Mmm.
Fred Copestake (49:47.411)
and just put a little bit of yourself out there on that because it will do you no ender good. Because people looking at that person just said that. Right. And if you're talking about the stuff that your customers care about, because that's the world you inhabit, then actually that should be reasonably easy. You don't have to be clever or massively funny or anything like that. Yeah. Some of the people who do this are brilliant at this, but really it's only just saying the stuff that the people who think, Oh yeah, actually, yeah, makes sense. That's why it's what I need. You're in a good place.
Brad Eather (49:51.971)
Mmm.
Brad Eather (50:14.242)
The part, the part of it that I think LinkedIn's great for is that so many sellers in small organizations, especially don't spend enough time on the business development thing. And LinkedIn is such a low effort way to keep your eyeballs on business development. Such a low effort way. And one of the themes in your book as well is continually
striving to improve, continually learning. And it is absolutely nerve wracking and everybody goes through the camera shyness when you're putting yourself out there. But once you've done it, you actually gain so many other skills that are applicable to other areas of your life and selling in general, just self-confidence.
for example, and really a self-reflection piece, know, like having the habitual habits of reflecting because you're going to make a post on LinkedIn. These are habits that I think lean in really well to ethical selling and the self-reflection piece.
Fred Copestake (51:32.779)
Yeah, no, I agree. Um, which is why it's worth taking the effort to do your own thinking. Now you can get a bit of turbocharged thinking, but if all you're doing is saying, Hey, chatty, can you write me something about this? Oh, brilliant. I could just tell you merges out cause I want to present. It's not that I need to put it. You've not actually learned 10 things. You might not even read it, but when you're starting to put your own thinking out there and you think, well, I need to, I need to make that more concise. I mean, to make it more punchy, I need to make it more.
Brad Eather (51:38.606)
Hmm.
Fred Copestake (52:00.339)
kind of, um, well, just, just suitable for that kind of platform. It does, it benefits you. And actually when I talk to somebody in real life, I can get the message across faster. can be more concise. I can get to the point quicker. I'm just better at communicating now. But if you're just totally, I don't want to say faking it, but only getting external help in doing this, you'll not develop any, any, any further forward.
Brad Eather (52:28.408)
Yeah, because well, I personally see it more as a professional development function. If I was going to be pitching a business as to why should I have my salespeople do this? It would be professional development to allow them to explore things that are going to benefit the company that align to the company, but you're otherwise not going to be pursuing because you're not interested in that.
Fred Copestake (52:43.571)
Hmm.
Brad Eather (52:57.486)
And those little things are only going to benefit the company. Um, do know what I mean? Like it's, it's quite a.
Fred Copestake (53:02.963)
Yeah, yeah, no, but then the company say, yeah, but they just reshare our stuff. So literally not learning anything and the customer's probably not really bothered because what you're sharing is probably fairly self-centered. Just wasting time really, might as well just not bother. Have a look at how this stuff works, which is, as you've already alluded to, it's massively about psychology and what people respond to. The top operators in this are brilliant psychologists and understanding human nature.
Brad Eather (53:08.334)
Mm.
Brad Eather (53:17.422)
Mmm.
Fred Copestake (53:31.603)
what kind of stops us and why it does. Well, isn't that what we want to try to achieve? Should we be spending some time on doing that? Because that'll benefit when we're sat in a coffee shop in the boardroom, on the phone, whatever. So yeah, kind of get double whammy, it? Double bubble, yeah, two benefits for doing it.
Brad Eather (53:47.758)
Mmm.
Brad Eather (53:51.586)
Yeah. So what, what do you think, if someone was going to go out and read your book, what, what's your sales pitch? Why would you read? Why would you read your book? Ethical selling.
Fred Copestake (54:03.603)
Cause it's what customers want and it works. I've said it a couple of times already. I mean, in it, I do, if you've talked ethical selling here in it, I do talk about the reasons why people wouldn't do it. So I do actually take those head on and then sort of call them out for being bullshit. Um, in a nutshell, it's what I Goldilocks effect. Yeah. People say it's like, you know, the three bears, it's like, too hot, too cold. It's like, it's too hot. too soft. It was too hard to do. It's too difficult. No, it's not.
You're probably doing a lot of stuff already. We've mentioned that too soft. It's like, Oh, I'm going to ask for a real pushover. Really passive. I'm going to give everything away. I'm going to be transparent. Costs and everything. No, that's not. Sometimes you have to be challenging. You have to be quite tough. know, there's difficult conversations that are what makes it. So we'll explore a little bit of that. And then, as I've said, the, ethical model that takes people through different parts of selling. So it's not a sales process. So if you're fully into your medic or your Miller Hyman or your whatever.
Doesn't matter. just sits in within that. It's just taking you through some thinking areas like empathetic communication, transparency, integrity, informed decision making and giving you the tactics to do that. So yeah, that's what I'd say. some good stuff in there for you.
Brad Eather (55:20.494)
Yeah, great. the fight, we've come to the end. The final question of the podcast. Given everything, your experience and everything that you've, that's led you to this moment, what's your definition of creativity?
Fred Copestake (55:38.263)
I'd say it's the ability or the process ability stroke process to generate something novel useful.
And the reason I just stopped myself and I talked about process there is because it doesn't have to be something that's purely innate and natural. Some people are creative and some people aren't. There are processes which you can follow to achieve that novel, innovative, useful, useful idea. So six thinking hat, the orange hat is just a spinoff from the six thinking hats, isn't it? So there's that scamper mind mapping brainstorming.
Those are things which you can do to end up with this thing that's kind of just a different and hey, that's pretty cool. We want that. You've brought something to the party that's a different.
Brad Eather (56:33.038)
Yeah, great. Just thinking about, I don't know if you're familiar with Brian Eno, but he's a composer from very famous sort of ambient composer and has done a lot of work around creative process and different games and different ways to achieve musical outcomes, but essentially giving you the tools to be creative. And it really is.
not just pulling something out of thin air. Creativity does have a process from start to finish and it's how you deviate from the process that is maybe some of the things that you're talking to there about in your definition.
Fred Copestake (57:22.225)
Yeah, you might have your unique little seed, your thing that you're going to kind of start to explode and work around. But yeah, there are processes which you can follow to make sure you get to this point where, we've got something new, novel, cool here. Awesome. Let's use this.
Brad Eather (57:41.024)
Maybe that's how a salesperson can define their value in all of this.
Fred Copestake (57:47.795)
This is why, you know, let's train people in product features and benefits versus let's train people in how to be creative and to use the questions skills they've got alongside say, thinking how creativity process to work with a customer that by the time we've come out of that, we're in this, whoa, we're doing something really cool and different here, which is going to set us apart in the market. Customer says, and we said, well, that's set us apart with you, hasn't it? So yeah, happy days.
or I could have just been a website.
Brad Eather (58:20.844)
Yeah. So Fred, I think is the best place to get in contact with you. People want to get in contact. LinkedIn.
Fred Copestake (58:29.019)
Yep, after all we said about LinkedIn, that's where we hang out. So, so yeah, they call me out if you think that I've any of the behaviors that I said I didn't think were so, so helpful or so useful. But yeah, and mention this mention this podcast, say you heard us chatting and connect with me. Don't just don't just follow connect and send me a little message.
Brad Eather (58:30.936)
Yeah.
Brad Eather (58:42.008)
Yeah.
Brad Eather (58:48.546)
Yeah, and ethical sellings on Amazon. That's where I read it. I'm sure you could probably get into it. You can buy it on your website, right?
Fred Copestake (58:57.011)
Probably can. Amazon's probably gonna be easier for Bezoskin if he needs it.
Brad Eather (58:59.862)
I'll just hit him up on...
Yeah.
Alright guys, well thanks for listening to Selling's Creative Podcast. If you've enjoyed the episode, make sure to like and subscribe. And in the meantime, happy selling!
