Brad Eather (00:04.871)
Hello and welcome to the Selling Creative Podcast, a podcast exploring creativity's role in sales. I'm your host, Brad Eather, a digital communication sales consultant applying communications, media and insights to help ordinary sales teams sell on social. Today, I have the pleasure of being joined by a man who's transformed his career from being a carpenter by trade to helping people navigate their corporate careers. If you're listening along today,
We're going to be talking about podcasts, talking about some of the stories and strategies behind the shows we host and talking about some of the things that Alex has learned about his along his podcast journey in the hope that any salespeople out there can directly apply any salespeople out there figuring out how they can build a brand as an employee can benefit. So
Welcome to the show, the host of the brand my career podcast, Alex Cuttiford.
Alex Cuttiford (01:07.394)
Brad, thanks for having me.
Brad Eather (01:10.077)
pleasure. So I want to kick this off. How did the carpenter make the switch out of a trade to become a manager of career development programs and a podcast?
Alex Cuttiford (01:23.185)
Good question. I have strong question, well asked. I think for me it came after I had sort done some traveling in sort of mid-20s, I guess was starting to reassess my priorities in life. Partly because my knees were giving out on me at 24 and I was thinking, and I was looking at my boss who's had multiple back surgeries and was thinking,
Maybe I need to start thinking of a contingency plan if I'm already falling apart. But then it was also, I think, bit of a thing of realizing I don't think this is the right fit long term, even though I really love building. And started, I'd started getting into a bit of youth work and was sort of doing part-time youth work and part-time carpentry for a while. But then I sort of came to the point where I was wanting to get a bit more full-time and...
bit more invested into the youth side of things and so I sort of made that switch. But then it was still only casual work until eventually a role came up that was looking for people with youth work experience and trade experience as a mentor for apprentices. And so kind of as this thing of I followed various passions over my life and then all of a sudden there was this role that was bringing this
this dual element of the skills that I'd built. And so I was just kind of like custom built for it. And so jumped at it and when I've applied for it and the guy that I was interviewing was just kind of like, oh, holy crap. Like we didn't expect to get this sort of kind of a perfect fit for the role and jumped into it. It didn't continue, but then I sort of stayed with that organization and moved into the career development role.
and then sort of worked my way up from there. So yeah.
Brad Eather (03:14.075)
Yeah, so obviously, going through your own journey that essentially you've had to unravel some of the complexities of, of life as you've transitioned from an outdoor trade in into a sort of more corporate role, I suppose. You've decided to start a podcast where you've been doing it for a while now, haven't you? Probably over a year.
Alex Cuttiford (03:41.356)
Yeah, just a bit over here, yeah.
Brad Eather (03:43.773)
Yeah, and it's called brand my career. And so my understanding is that it's exploring the idea of branding your career as a sort of as a career as a career professional, right? How to elevate yourself. Tell me a little bit more about it.
Alex Cuttiford (04:04.27)
Yeah, so I guess the name came from the idea, like I was sort of thinking about what am I passionate about and I really like personal branding and I really like career development and so that's where I sort of came up with the idea for Brand My Career. I was sort of tossing up with whether to call it Brand Your Career or Brand My Career and I sort of went with the my because I wanted the person listening to sort of read that and
be reflecting back to themselves, like how can I be taking ownership of this? And that's been a big core message that I've sort of come to around the podcast is helping people take ownership of their career. Whatever that might be, whatever it is, like we need to be taking personal ownership of it. And so that's what I sort of had started to do in my own career and sort of came quite passionate about it.
how empowering it can be for someone to realise that you can sort put yourself in the driver's seat, I guess, of your career and choose where it goes and you don't have to go. Because I became a cabinet maker at 16, that that's where I'm locked in for the rest of my life. You can sort of, in many ways, reinvent yourself if you're looking to make a change. There's no reason you can't work through that process.
Brad Eather (05:11.687)
Hmm.
Brad Eather (05:22.429)
So what was your reasons behind starting a podcast? Like what were your personal reasons for going out and I suppose trying to explore this idea through that medium?
Alex Cuttiford (05:38.018)
So I'd been pitching it at my previous job for like two years and it sort of became this running joke that every opportunity I got, I pitched that we should be doing a podcast on career development. Where I got passionate about digital communications is actually through my wife because when we got married, she was at university studying her PR communications degree. And at that stage of my life, I really didn't think communications
matter at all. kind of just felt like that's just talking about the thing instead of doing the thing. And so, but then as she was studying and I started picking her brain about stuff and she was sharing what she was learning about strategic communications. just.
I really fell in love with the idea and particularly like organizational communication and how as an organization communication this plays a strong role in building culture and vision and all of this stuff. And so I was just picking her brain like every time she was working on assignments I was laying there just picking her brain about it.
And just got really passionate about digital communications and I guess the opportunity that existed for us, like with the rise of social media and the internet and the role that that could play. And so then as I got passionate about career development, I just was like, I...
I really think these two need to come together and how can digital communications through different mediums play a role particularly in helping people in their career, whether that's a sort of, at the time I was thinking largely about young people and I think...
Alex Cuttiford (07:15.242)
young people more and more are obviously turning to social media to get there as their sort of source of information and stuff and so I like we need to get good information onto the internet so that there's not only just bad career advice and people sort of speaking maybe well intentionally but ignorantly about certain things. Not to say that I am...
Brad Eather (07:27.612)
Mmm.
Alex Cuttiford (07:36.61)
can fully alleviate myself from that. I'm sure there's plenty of people who think that there's advice that I've put out there that they don't agree with. So that's where I really got passionate about it, guess, was just that pair of digital communications. And I prefer long form.
meaningful conversations I feel much more comfortable in that than trying to do the know short videos to camera and stuff. I just love having those those deeper longer form conversations where you can really get into stuff and and then sharing that opportunity.
Brad Eather (08:04.113)
Mmm.
Well, I suppose like when I'm thinking about media, yes, there's so many different ways that you can capture media and communicate online. As you said, you might not be comfortable sitting there and pointing a camera at yourself and talking, but if I was to put it into the sales perspective, all salespeople should feel comfortable having a conversation. And the podcast medium is a great way to leverage those existing skills in a way that's transferable.
online.
Alex Cuttiford (08:38.156)
Yeah, I, the thing that I really love about as well from a strategic content point of view is just the content stack that you can create. And it's sort of, think the podcast and particularly a video podcast, like gives yourself the best platform to then create other forms of content. And so like for me, like I have the podcast and obviously I'll put that on Spotify and all the platforms, but then, you know, you're, cutting up short clips for
your LinkedIn and other social media channels. You can do a five minute video, you can do your one minute videos, all coming from that one piece of content. And you've still been able to have the deeper, heartier stuff, but then you can also create mountains of content. I can create more videos than I can actually want to use in the time frame that I'm sharing an episode. It's more so I have to choose which ones don't I share.
Brad Eather (09:24.989)
Mm.
Brad Eather (09:31.008)
Mm.
Brad Eather (09:36.197)
Yeah. so going back, initially when you started brand my career, you've sort of talked about your personal aims, which is exploring, you know, what it means to, actually brand your career and your story. But can you sort of talk to me a little bit about initially what, what were those, what were you actually trying to achieve from a personal perspective?
And then as you mentioned, the organizational point of view, what are the results been from a professional point of view for you in terms of, I don't know, the business development aspect?
Alex Cuttiford (10:18.19)
so I guess largely the goal was thinking around, guess, my building my own personal brand and I guess putting myself out there in a way that people can see and understand what I'm about and who I am and sort of this having that, I guess that broader exposure, within the sort of industry that I'm interested in and passionate about. In terms of directly, it's sort of funny because the podcast doesn't
It doesn't perfectly align with my current day job, but it sort of overlaps. but what it has done is create a connection point with people that you are, who are in your work sphere that do sort of resonate with that. so, you know, you might hit off a conversation with someone at a networking event of going, Hey, you know, like I checked out the podcast the other day. It's really great. Yeah, it's gone really well. And it just creates a connection point there with someone.
where now you understand each other a bit better and then things can sort of unfold from there. I think at the bottom of my mind, because I didn't create too many like hardline goals, like I think for me I just knew doing something like this because I, one, I just really enjoy it. But I just knew it would create the opportunities that you can't plan for. know, this generates an opportunity that something will unfold because you've done something, you know.
Brad Eather (11:23.634)
Good.
Brad Eather (11:39.685)
Yeah, yeah.
Brad Eather (11:47.493)
So let's talk about some of those things, those opportunities that have unfolded for you. Without a strategic plan at the beginning, what's been the result?
Alex Cuttiford (11:58.798)
I guess the big thing's sort of been the conversations that you have have helped me sort of start to build out the different perspectives that I have and I know you're keen to talk about the perspectives that it's shaped. I think that's probably been the biggest impact is the relationships that you start to build and then the ideas that start to generate. In terms of
In terms of work, it's probably been that we've deepened some work relationships that have then been able to go on and do some projects. One of the things we're working on at the moment is a pilot for getting Net Zero Careers education into the school curriculum. that's been a project that we've been working on through work and through some that I've connected with and who's connected through the podcast.
and we've built a good relationship. So that's been really good.
Brad Eather (13:00.349)
Cause I suppose one of the things, one of the things that I've noticed, cause I've been following you since relatively early on in the, in your podcast and journey. But what it seems to me, like from the outside is that you've definitely elevated your personal brand within your industry. Is that fair to say?
Alex Cuttiford (13:28.697)
I would have to say yes largely because I didn't have an online presence before. So one of the things, I definitely think I've broadened it because I've moved to Newcastle from Bathurst. So was living out in the central west in a small town and that's where I was sort of working in some different programs supporting young people that are disengaged from school to get into either employment or
Brad Eather (13:30.077)
You
Alex Cuttiford (13:56.266)
education. But I'd grown up in that town. So I had a built network from just the fact that I'd grown up there. So, you know, like one of the principals at a school we engaged with used to be my coach when I was a kid and stuff. And so I used those relationships that I have had. Whereas then when I was moving to Newcastle, I was realizing I'm about to move to a place that's 10 times the size. I don't know anyone apart from a couple of friends that have moved up here.
You know, so I've got no professional network. I need to do something that will help sort of cut through that. I don't want to just sort of fall into a black hole of knowing no one and stuff. And so that's where I got really intentional about getting onto LinkedIn, finding connections, reaching out to people, starting conversations. And that's where you then start to find a network nationally of people that are doing some really cool stuff in this space.
Brad Eather (14:51.495)
Hmm.
Alex Cuttiford (14:52.722)
and the podcast is in a really good way to sort of strengthen those connections by getting them on, having a chat, promoting what they're doing, and being a champion of those people really, I guess, allows you to sort of get into that ecosystem. And then also it might be things like you chat to one person, they say, you know who else you'd be really good for you to chat to, this person, and they link you up. And so that's...
Brad Eather (15:06.14)
Hmm.
Alex Cuttiford (15:22.444)
Yeah, I definitely think that helps you establish yourself in the ecosystem.
Brad Eather (15:27.163)
Yeah, because it's funny because when I was on your podcast, of the themes, one of the commonalities that we had was that I transitioned from Sydney to Adelaide. And part of the reason that I started on LinkedIn as well was because that community that I'd had from growing up exactly is gone. And now I need a new way to reach people and do it relatively quickly because
You can't replicate growing up in a place and knowing everybody. You need to get out of your comfort zone and do it. Be well, be creative about it in the ways that you actually do it. So. Yes, let's get into these perspectives that, that you've uncovered through your podcast. So what you've interviewed, what? Ford 40 odd people at this point.
Alex Cuttiford (16:03.906)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brad Eather (16:23.771)
Around the same topic.
Alex Cuttiford (16:24.366)
It's probably closer to 30, I think I've had about 32 episodes with a few more to release.
Brad Eather (16:30.619)
Yeah, cool. So what?
And just talk to us briefly about the type of roles of the people that you're interviewing.
Alex Cuttiford (16:44.12)
So I try to have a diverse range of people coming from different perspectives. So I sort of try to use the taking ownership of your careers, like the centering point, but then having people coming at from all different angles. So someone might come at it from a wellbeing lens. Someone might come at it a personal branding lens, personal styling, career coaches, school career educators.
all sort of coming from those different angles. yeah, I've spoken to a personal stylist, a wellbeing specialist, psychologists.
Alex Cuttiford (17:22.674)
and you know, a number of career coaches that each have different perspectives. So some might work specifically with women, some might work specifically with people in middle management that want to learn how to get to that executive level of management. LinkedIn ghost writers, personal renders, we've both interviewed Joe. I was listening to your chat with him the other day. I'm definitely gonna have to download the soundtrack of
Brad Eather (17:45.199)
Mmm. Yeah.
Alex Cuttiford (17:52.92)
gladiator. Yeah, so it's kind of getting to the point now where it's like, which industry and people haven't I spoken to, need to make sure I get them on.
Brad Eather (17:53.879)
Yeah.
Brad Eather (18:05.553)
Yeah, perfect. So all these diverse perspectives and you're essentially in the pivotal role of interpreting, interpreting all these different signals and what it means for your message, which is building a personal brand. What do you think, what do you think for, for my audience are some of those key insights that you've learned from drawing all these different perspectives that actually relate to
branding a career.
Alex Cuttiford (18:37.678)
Hmm. Well, I think firstly, the most common theme that comes through is that people feel a sense of shame about how they've gone about building their career. And so it doesn't matter what industry you're in. And I bet you get a lot of this of people in sales, like there would hardly ever be someone in sales that like says they planned for it. all of them probably start the sentence with, I fell into it.
Brad Eather (19:03.495)
Hmm.
Alex Cuttiford (19:04.386)
But they probably feel like before any everything leading up to that was often people will feel like they were in the wrong place and now they sort of feel like they've found their niche and they feel this sense of shame about, like it took me so long to work it out. When actually all of the skill sets that they've been building and all of the insights have actually built them to that place where, and that's part of their journey and why they now fit where they fit.
Trying to think of the common denominators across... I wouldn't say there's any one way to build your personal brand is probably one of the good things to understand. I think you do need to sort of lean into your strengths and lean into your preferences, particularly when you're starting out, like not trying to sort of force yourself to do something that you don't want to do just because you think you have to. You know, like there are people that have... like the personal stylist that I interviewed, she...
She was in sports management for 20 odd years before she went back into styling, even though when she was like six, she was talking about how she wanted to be a stylist and stuff. So I think you got to find what works for you, start there and let it gradually unfold.
Brad Eather (20:31.983)
I find that really interesting, that shame piece. And I think that maybe what that refers to is a sense of being lost in your professional purpose. What? Yeah.
Alex Cuttiford (20:46.638)
It's comparison as well. I think people looking at others and thinking they've worked it all out and that they're the only one that hasn't worked it out. When actually you start talking to other people and then they're all telling the same story. You know, like, yeah, I did this, this and this before I really worked out what I wanted to do. Or I thought I had to finish school, go to uni, get a job, even though, and it feels like everyone else is doing that.
But actually, some people went this way, some people went that way, and everyone's sort of just trying to find their way through.
Brad Eather (21:23.141)
Yeah. So if there's anyone out there that is feeling a bit stuck, like what are some of the, what are some of the strategies that you've spoken to people about that you think are the most valuable to actually get yourself out of that, navigate that part of the journey and find your niche, so to speak.
Alex Cuttiford (21:43.918)
Hmm. I on the higher level, the thing I often talk about is self others and actions. And so when you're sort of, when you're thinking about your career, there's the element of self, so doing the inner work. So what's the inner work that I need to do that might be building up your, a positive self concept. It's like, are you, are you speaking negatively to yourself constantly? Do you have this negative self concept?
If you have that, all of the other actions that you're trying to do to really sort of grind away at your career, like this aren't going to get you to a place where you're actually feeling comfortable and fulfilled. So you first need to think about the inner self and how can, what are the aspects there you need to be working on identifying your skills and your strengths and that sort of thing. And then others being, you know, none of us can succeed alone. So we need a network of people around us. So is it mentors? Is it coaches?
Is it sponsors? Who are the people that we need around us? Is it a community of people that believe in us and actually know us? Do we have an inner circle of people that we can really trust with? I guess the more intimate parts of how we're feeling about our career. Maybe we're feeling like we've failed or we've let people down and things like that. Do you have those close people that can actually support you in your career?
And then actions being what are the career enhancing actions that you can then take? And so I'd be prioritizing what's the inner work, who's the network I need. And then when you've got that, that's when you can really start thinking strategically about what are the, what's the next action I'm going to take. And, and so for me, like right now I'm in a job I want to try and my next thing is, guess, working on getting a promotion. And so I'm sort of thinking strategically through the actions that I can take.
in my performance agreement that I work on with my direct report, I'm making sure I'm getting stuff into that that's sort of demonstrating my ambitions, demonstrating what I'm doing above and beyond my current role so I can try and to get to where I'm going. But doing that alone without first actually doing the work of, I need to, know, back when we made the move to Newcastle and was sort of a bit disoriented, I sort of...
Alex Cuttiford (24:06.274)
did a bit of counselling and stuff just to sort of really find my feet as I was sort of this adjusting to a new way of living, know, change relationships, different stresses and all of that stuff. Like if you're not doing that stuff, you can't just do the little micro strategies that are gonna actually really move the needle on the goals that you have.
Brad Eather (24:22.213)
Yeah, yeah.
Brad Eather (24:29.895)
So, when you said self, others and actions and just walk through what that means, are you familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs? That came into my head. If anyone's not, it's essentially a pyramid that describes...
our needs as humans first psychological needs, second safety, love and belonging, esteem and self actualization. And I think for people in the Western world, psychological needs, safety needs in terms of putting a house over your head and things like that. We we covered to a degree, but what you're talking about, I mean, I've done the same as well.
Alex Cuttiford (24:59.384)
Yep.
Brad Eather (25:18.383)
I had a tough spot and had to go and take care first of my psychological needs and then I've been able to move up. But I think what you're talking about, self, others and actions, almost applies to the top level of that hierarchy. Love and belonging, esteem, self-actualization and the act of going to seek others within the network is that sense of belonging. Finding that self-esteem that you were talking about.
And then taking actions is you finally navigating that top part to find self actualization. And that's, I mean, I don't think anybody can actually answer how to do that. It's, it's, it's, it's a journey on yourself, but, but the idea of getting yourself up that ladder and
Alex Cuttiford (25:52.878)
Hmm.
Alex Cuttiford (26:01.902)
Yeah, it's a journey. Yeah. Yep.
Brad Eather (26:13.159)
putting some actions in place to try to find it. It's really quite powerful.
Alex Cuttiford (26:15.694)
Yeah, I've been so I think about it what actually informed that self others and actions was so I was reading the so there's the Australian career development blueprint Which is a document that sort of underpins any formal career development courses need to align to it and There's the 12 career management competencies and stuff and of course no one can remember 12 things. I can't remember all of them
But as I was reading it, was what was standing out to me. The core themes, I was like, this is really about self others and the actions and stuff. And so I sort of, it was actually, if you look at my first LinkedIn post, it's a picture of that booklet, my notepad and a coffee. When I sat down after I finished my job, I was getting ready to start the podcast and I was reading that and sort of just thinking a bit more deeply about career development. And that was where the sort of foundation for that idea came. But I do think about,
the hierarchy and particularly because one of the things and this is one of the perspectives I guess that I've been thinking about is this idea of what does it actually mean to have an impactful career and a positive impact through our career and that's the thing that I'm really grappling with at the moment. but what I one of the aspects that I think I believe is we can't
really have a strong impact through our career on our community until we actually get ourselves to that place of self-actualization and self-transcendence where actually we've done the inner work to get our insecurities out of the way so that now we can actually think about the community that we want to serve. However that might be through whatever job role you're in you need to get yourself to a place where
you're not just consumed by your own self-concerns and you're able to actually look truly at the people around you and see them and see their struggles or whatever need it is that they have and then you can start to really think about what's the skillset I have that can serve these people.
Brad Eather (28:24.925)
Hmm.
Brad Eather (28:29.742)
This might be a weird one, through your experience of this initiative of the podcast and your own career, how do you think that's helped you?
begin, how do you think that's aligned you to achieving self actualization?
Brad Eather (28:56.721)
Big question.
Alex Cuttiford (28:56.984)
Good question, because it's one of those ones where it's hard to pin the exact things you're doing right. It's like waking up at five o'clock in the morning to edit a podcast. Doesn't feel like moving yourself to self-actualization. But you're exposing yourself to the conversation. So you're having these conversations and you're also then always thinking about... It draws you back to yourself when you think bigger picture around what are you trying to achieve.
Brad Eather (29:09.286)
Yeah, yeah.
Alex Cuttiford (29:25.526)
and what are my actual goals in this? And what is the impact that I want to have on the world? And so I guess doing the podcast is the activity that aggravates that deeper thinking around what am I actually trying to do here? That if you weren't taking the action, you're potentially not asking yourself those bigger questions. Now you...
You might still do it. I just think it's one of those cyclic things of you take an action and you see where it takes you. And then you start challenging yourself on, this actually, is this getting me closer to where I want to be? Or is it moving me further away? And it's just that grappling that comes as you keep taking steps forward. It's kind of like the whole planned happenstance, um, theory around career development of you take an action, it creates causes and then.
Brad Eather (30:13.895)
Mmm.
Alex Cuttiford (30:22.478)
you're exposed to now new opportunities, new ways of thinking. But then you can never fully pin it on, did this and I got that.
Brad Eather (30:30.757)
Yeah. I like that. That's a great answer to a pretty big question. think. Hey, cause I'm trying to bring it back to the sales piece. Cause what I want people to understand is that creating a podcast isn't necessarily, I would say if creating a podcast should be more aligned to those, to what we've discussed today in terms of, learning and seeking insights.
And in the context of yours, brand my career, you've got that core message, which you're learning from and forming your own opinions around. And in my case, selling is creative. I'm trying to discover what it means to be creative in the sales profession. And I think that having that core center from a, from a salesperson's perspective.
What you're actually trying to do is come up with you're forming your own sense of intellectual property. And that is something that has value to sell. we're not, and as you said, there's additional benefits from a organizational point of view where you're getting awareness and all that kind of stuff. But in terms of branding your career or branding your selling career,
Developing your own IP is valuable to both you and the company and you can progress through an initiative like a podcast, your career in ways that you probably couldn't have done before.
Alex Cuttiford (32:15.82)
Yeah. I think so for me, it's an interesting one. think it one at this establishes a credibility with your workforce that they can see, like there's even been, cause there'll be conversations and connections I make with, with people.
and things that I learned through that that I can bring back to my workplace and share. It sort of shows a level of competency of that you're actually able to be someone that can start something, can drive something. I also think about it from the lens of demonstrating the different areas that you can operate in and have credibility. And so even this thing about like for me, it gives me a level of credibility if I was to go talk to our marketing department.
around things and share ideas there if you're someone that can sort of demonstrate versus if I was just purely like I'm a program officer. If you don't have that, there's potentially less weight that could be had within that conversation versus if you go in and you can sort of share, this is something that I was trying in my own platform and this worked really well or something, you know, like I just think it.
Brad Eather (33:05.373)
Mm.
Brad Eather (33:29.159)
Yeah.
Alex Cuttiford (33:29.198)
Cause I often think about it as having this podcast could potentially be my way into marketing if I ever wanted to do that. Even though I have no formal qualifications, you're sort of starting to build up a skillset that you can actually demonstrate. So I think it definitely can open up the opportunities for transferable skills and demonstrating that.
Brad Eather (33:36.304)
Yeah.
Brad Eather (33:48.081)
Yeah, because one of the questions that I have planned was like, how is the aims of your podcast changed over time? But I think maybe what your answer would be is that the podcast actually opens opportunities so that you can be in control of the opportunities and the direction that you want to take in the future.
Alex Cuttiford (34:07.736)
Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, yeah. It's like rather than letting the goal drive it.
Brad Eather (34:09.499)
Yeah.
Alex Cuttiford (34:16.654)
you can just allow the opportunities to unfold.
Brad Eather (34:19.793)
Yeah. So I, my personal take on, I think the act of creating, creating something is especially in the context of a podcast. The act of making a podcast is a creative way of getting your message out there.
So I just wanted to finish up today by asking the question that I ask at the end of every podcast based on your experiences over the last year and changing from a carpenter to the host of a Brand My Career podcast. What's your definition of creativity?
Alex Cuttiford (35:00.43)
I was actually looking forward to this one. So I have two thoughts that I want to share. Because one is that, and this came up in my episode of Marian Power that's just gone live, we get into creativity a bit. But for me, so I think of creativity as a core value. And so it's not just a thing that you do, but something that sort of is deeper than that. that just because for me, I just identified
life just feels so much better when you're in a state of creativity. But then one of the other things that I was just recently reading, so I'm reading a book called Bullshit Jobs and it's sort of taking a bit of a more cynical look I guess at our larger systems of employment and stuff and assessing that. But one of the things that has really jumped out at me was the concept that's been called the pleasure of being the cause.
And so this, it's a term that was coined by German psychologist Karl Grusin. his definition here was, to him, it's quite simple. As humans, we play because we love putting something into the universe and for it to have a predictable and corresponding effect. And so you see it right from infancy, a young child, when they learned that they can pick up this pencil.
and move it across the table and then they start laughing and they're all excited and it's kind of and it gets this root thing within all humans of the pleasure of being the cause and it doesn't have to have any greater purpose than just causing that effect and that really like and and this book's talking it through the lens of when you're getting to be in like controlling that process like it's probably the closest to freedom you can really get to.
But then also the flip side of that is that when someone else is making you do something that you believe is pointless and meaningless, it's like the closest thing to torture that there is. And so I just found that really powerful. Like the pleasure of being the cause I think is a great way to think about creativity.
Brad Eather (37:13.885)
Yeah, that's a great answer. That's a great answer. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks for I want to say thank you for giving me the opportunity to be on your past podcast when I was very early on in my in my journey as a business owner. But thank you for returning the favor and coming on my podcast today. Where where can we find you? What's the best way to get in touch or find you online?
Alex Cuttiford (37:42.51)
Yeah, thanks for having me, Brad. I loved having you on my podcast and really glad to jump on yours as well. It's really fun. So LinkedIn is probably the best place. I did have a website up, but I've actually currently taking it down, working on a project at the moment where I'm hopefully going to...
be working on a work integrated learning program with the University of Newcastle and getting some students working on maybe a bit of a rebrand of the show and the website and stuff. that's currently on hold while we see if that project comes together. But yeah, jumping on LinkedIn is definitely the best place to find me and where I like to hang out and always up for a chat and people can link through to the podcast, through the bio there or wherever they find
on punk cast.
Brad Eather (38:34.971)
Yeah, perfect. All right, mate. Thank you so much and we'll chat soon.
Alex Cuttiford (38:41.4)
Cheers.
