ï»żIntroduction & Neurodiversity in the Workplace
Brad Eather (00:28)
Hello and welcome to the Creative Business Podcast, a podcast exploring the intersection between creativity and commerce. I'm your host, Brad Eather, a marketing communications consultant supporting businesses from cybersecurity to systems integrators build sustainable marketing functions.
Whenever neurodiversity in the workplace comes up, the word "accommodation" gets thrown around. But what are we actually accommodating? While many businesses love to claim they value diverse thinking, most remain rigidly structured around neurotypical norms. So how do we stop treating accommodation like an inconvenience and start treating cognitive diversity as a strategic business advantage?
My next guest climbed to the very top of the corporate ladder as a notable Chief Technology Officer, all while unknowingly living with complex neurodivergence. Having received a late-in-life dual diagnosis of autism and ADHD, he now argues that building a flexible environment for non-linear thinkers both improves business standards overall and empowers the entire workforce. Please welcome to the show, Myke Ireland.
Myke Ireland (01:40)
Thanks Brad. Thanks for having me on board.
Brad Eather (01:43)
We're meeting at a crossroads for you, so I'm looking forward to the chat. Myke, I want to kick things off by asking you a bit of a big question: What do you think is the biggest misconception business leaders get wrong about neurodiversity?
Rethinking Accommodation & Productivity Metrics
Myke Ireland (01:59)
Brad, I think it's probably a combination of things. I think for me, the thing that tends to stand out is, as you mentioned earlier, we have this concept of accommodation. Accommodating the neurodiverseâlike as if there's one pool of people here that are the "normals" and then there's a pool over to the side that the neurodiverse people get to swim in. Every now and then, we can come and visit the main pool, but we've got to go back to the other pool because that's where we pee, and they don't want that in the big corporate pool.
So I think there's this approach of still treating neurodiversity as an alternative way of thinking and not a mainstream way of thinking. In my opinion, I think businesses are losing a little bit of the added advantage that you can have by building around some neurodiverse frameworks.
There are stats that keep coming out that talk about productivity in Australiaâwe talk about a productivity decline. I can't help but think that there's got to be some correlation between this productivity decline (or measured productivity decline) and the rapid onset of neurodiverse thinking. There are more neurodiverse people entering the market every day, and I don't know whether we're measuring productivity the right way anymore. I think maybe it might be time to reassess what productivity looks like within a business framework and maybe realign some of that to some neurodivergent ways of thinking.
Technology Integration & Inclusive User Experience
Brad Eather (03:23)
For people that don't know, Myke, you come from the world of audiovisual integrationâa lot of which has to do with integrating new technologies into the workplace. Aligned with what you were just saying, as technology becomes more and more encroached into the workplace, those norms around what productivity is are changing.
Just from that perspective of the user interfacing with technologies in a workplace, how does that sit with you? How do you align those two types of thinking?
Myke Ireland (03:48)
Yeah, I was always a big user experience guy. User experience for me was always the key aspect of technology, particularly if you're measuring technology on its adoption rateâif people are actually using it. In the systems integration world, we would often get excited about the size of a deal, the scope of a deal, how much money it's worth, and what it's going to look like in a case studyâwithout putting all that much effort into what it's going to be like for the user, both now and down the track.
And who is the user? This is the other question that comes up. Quite often when you're doing systems integration work, the user is the buying manager or the project manager within the business. It's not always the end user. We would often find that we would be so far removed from the end user; there might be a building firm between us and a consultant, and then a consultant between the builder and the customer.
Being able to design user experiences for a wider range of users was always a challenge because you never get to meet the users. The consultants mightâthey might spend some time with a user group or a focus group. But I think no matter what happens, all of that information is disseminated down into a very typical scope of works that is often built around a neurotypical framework. We're not considering things like visual interpretation or audible interpretation of how neurodivergent people are going to act around this technology.
One example I always use is closed captions on meetingsâparticularly Skype and Teams meetings. For a neurodivergent person to sit through a 40-minute meeting and have to pay audible attention whilst processing everything that's going on can be pretty hard. Something as simple as enforcing closed captions on every meeting instantly makes things easier for neurodivergent people. It actually makes it easier for your neurotypical people as wellâthey probably just haven't realized that until you've turned closed captions on.
Small little things like that show we can spend a bit more time trying to understand the entire span of the user base. We need to make sure the net we cast encapsulates all users, not just the people attending meetings in the design phase.
Unpacking Late-in-Life Dual Diagnosis (AuDHD)
Brad Eather (06:25)
The discussion so far has been through the lens of your background as a Chief Technology Officer. You're currently not working as a CTO, but I want to get back into neurodivergence and leadership. What do you think your childhood self would think about the guy who became a CTO?
Myke Ireland (06:33)
It's a good question. I've been doing a lot of work over the past six to twelve months conversing with that seven-year-old version of myself, because he needs a bit of love, and I've not necessarily been very kind to that kid in the last couple of decades.
I think my seven-year-old self, if he could see me now, would be somewhat overwhelmed with where things wentâa lot of it would be very unexpected. If I take the feedback I was given as an undiagnosed neurodivergent kid at school: class clown, always distracted, always distracts others, can't concentrate, would be great if he could apply himself. So I think part of that seven-year-old kid would be looking at me like, "Wow, how did you manage to do all that considering all this negative feedback we get all the time?"
Then some part of that kid would probably think, "Well, there you goâthe teachers weren't all right. It wasn't always going to turn out that this kid was going to be bad and unsuccessful."
Early on, in my early 20s, my approach to the world was very much about trying to find a level of acceptance, as opposed to locking into what I truly wanted to do with my life. This is very common with undiagnosed neurodivergent people. The negative feedback you get young is very forthcomingâit's almost dailyâand you become very attuned to it. It creates an inner drive to prove everyone wrong, or to prove the status quo wrongâthat you could actually outdo the feedback you were given.
That can be a positive and a negative. It creates a big drive, but it can also make you pursue things in life that aren't necessarily honest with your true self. It satisfies that outer shell that needs positive feedback and reinforcement, but seldom is it doing the right thing for you where you're making decisions based on your true self. At this stage of my life, I'm definitely trying to lean more into making sure my decisions aren't for a level of validation from the world, but are aligned with what I actually want to be doing with my time.
Brad Eather (09:24)
That's a big statement. Would it be fair to say you felt like you were successful in a career, but maybe not successful as yourself? Is that fair?
Myke Ireland (09:36)
Yeah, that's 100% fair. We lose our identity of self. That's another common thing among neurodivergent communitiesâthe sense of self becomes blurred. As a child, being your true self is often met with negative feedback. Whether intended to be negative or not, it normally addresses the negative as opposed to empowering the positive.
You almost end up withâI'm not going to say a dual personalityâa diffraction of your inner self. There's a version you have to curate to fit into the world: to not be the weirdo, to not be the one who says the weird things or makes the weird facial expressions. So there's the worldly version, and then when you come home, you take the mask off and de-mask. If you're lucky, over the weekend you relax into yourself, and then come Sunday night, you've got the mask back out, giving it a polish because you have to go back to the real world and can't necessarily be your real self.
A definite point of awakening for people diagnosed later in life is getting back to that true sense of self and trying to de-mask those layers: identifying what is authentically me versus what is the "me" I'm putting on to fit into the world. That's definitely work I've been doing over the past little while.
Brad Eather (11:12)
Can you tell me a little bit about the diagnosis? You were around 40 when you were diagnosed?
Myke Ireland (11:17)
43 when I was diagnosed.
Brad Eather (11:20)
What was the process of reflection once finding out that you've been diagnosed with...
Myke Ireland (11:26)
AuDHDâthat beautiful combination of both autism and ADHD.
Brad Eather (11:32)
There's obviously a period of self-reflection that happens after that. Walk me through what that diagnosis revealed to you and how that's changed the trajectory of your professional career since.
Myke Ireland (11:46)
You now have no choice but to start to know the real you. Inevitably, when you're undiagnosedâand I found this personallyâyou just can't help but wonder why the world is so hard. Why is everything so hard? Why does everything seem so easy for other people to do, but for me, everything is a challenge? It's the challenge in ramping up for the task, doing the task, finishing the task, and then awaiting feedback. Where is it going to go wrong? Is the feedback going to be good or bad? What am I going to do when I get it?
You end up in a place where you have to let go of a lot of that thought process. I'm fortunate to have an amazing psychologist I've been working with. Her point of view is to frame it as: "If that seven-year-old kid was here with you now, how would you as the older brother deliver this information to him? Would you say there's something wrong with you, or would you encourage him to lean into his alternative way of thinking, regardless of negative feedback?"
I got to the point where I understood negative feedback as a misunderstandingâit's someone who doesn't know better critiquing you based on their own set of views that they uphold as normal. Personally, you have to be kinder to yourself and give yourself grace that you didn't know what was going on.
I equate it to being a Windows user, but only ever having a manual for macOS. Then all of a sudden, the Windows manual shows up and you realize, "This is how wrong I've had it the whole time, because I wasn't playing to my strengths." So there's a lot of learning to be gentle with yourself, learning more about yourself, and actually enjoying the processâfinally being cool sitting with a characteristic of yourself now that you know it's part of you, as opposed to thinking it's something you need to fix or remedy.
The AuDHD Brain Dynamic & Leadership Challenges
Brad Eather (14:18)
For those who don't understand, walk me through how the autism and ADHD sides of your brain work together. Then, reflecting as a leader, how might you accommodate yourself in hindsight?
Myke Ireland (14:36)
I'll be straight up: those two parts of the brain don't work well together. AuDHD is a really strange dichotomy. The ADHD elements involve rejection sensitivity, a bit of obsessive-compulsiveness, wanting to be a perfectionist, being highly analytical, and masking in a way that lets you socially connect with people. Then there's the autistic part of your brain that doesn't really want any of thatâit doesn't want the social connection, responsibility, or consistent accountability, and just wants to exist in the moment.
You learn to squash a lot of the autistic stuff down, and ADHD traits tend to come to the front because ADHD is more of a survival response. We can survive situations well when ADHD is leading, again pushing the authentic self to the back.
When you get treated for ADHDâyou can easily medicate for it nowâit suppresses a lot of those negative ADHD traits, but it also suppresses the coping mechanisms that came with it. Suddenly, the autism is on full display. The autism leads once the ADHD is treated, and because you haven't been intimate with your autistic self for so many years, you have to get used to those traits and let them flourish.
You have to tune up things like social contact hoursâtime spent out in public versus at home. I gave up drinking as a result of my diagnosis because there are already enough things playing havoc with my brain; I don't need other substances in the mix.
The dichotomy comes from finding the balance between wanting perfection and acceptance versus not really being interested in social cohesion or interaction, and being pretty happy doing things my own way (which doesn't really fit a corporate mold).
As a leader, where that becomes really tough is that as a people manager, you want to be there for your team. But we have an interesting relationship with empathy and sympathy. We can be very empathetic, but it's rather clinically empathetic: "I get it, I've been through it, I recognize the pattern, now what are we going to do to move beyond it?" As opposed to just sitting there with someone and going through it emotionally with them.
It's difficult for us to share in emotional grief because we can't separate ourselves from the emotionâwe absorb and take it on. The challenge as a leader is supporting your people without adopting their issues personally as a problem you now have to solve. That was one of the most challenging lines for me to tow: balancing support without overexhausting myself.
Stigma, Changing Work Culture, and Productivity
Brad Eather (18:28)
In the workplaceârightly or wronglyâhealth carries a stigma, especially mental health. If you were to go back to the beginning of your career with this diagnosis and present how your brain works, do you think that would have been beneficial, or would you rather that wasn't the norm?
Myke Ireland (18:54)
If I knew what I know now and put it on the table back then, I don't think the world would have been ready for it. The biggest stigma when I was a teen was that ADHD meant you were a "special needs" kid who needed learning support. You would not want to be diagnosed with ADHD in school because you were literally categorized as out of the norm.
Now, there's more opportunity, but leadersâparticularly those who have been in leadership for decades or started businesses themselvesâneed to recognize that the workforce itself is changing. More and more people are focused on work-life balance. Before asking about salary, title, or longevity, people ask: "Is this place going to be healthy for me? How do you support mental health? How do you manage alternative ways of thinking? What happens on days when mentally I can't show upâcan I work from home?"
The corporate world is about to have change thrust upon it if it's not ready. This is the new language people bring to the workforce, especially neurodivergent people. Youth today are significantly more empowered than we were. They enter the workforce saying, "I am going to be my authentic self. Am I allowed to be? Because if not, I'm not working here."
Brad Eather (21:10)
When we think about a younger generation bringing change, it sounds huge. But for someone like you, is it as simple as having the autonomy to take yourself off into your own space and work for a couple of hours? Is that what leadership needs to provide?
Myke Ireland (21:42)
Yeah, flexibility of work. The nature of a neurodivergent brain is that it was never meant to function 9-to-5, Monday to Friday in a post-agricultural society way of working. It's why we struggled at school and were diagnosed as difficult learnersâwe don't fit that framework. Sometimes our brains are on, sometimes they're off, and we aren't in charge of that.
Feedback I received over the years was, "It's up to you how you show up." When getting negative feedback, it would extend to: "You're a leader and you're neurodivergent, so you need to take action to show up positively so you can affect other neurodivergent employees."
That sounds backwards. The reason I can't show up at the expected times is because of my neurodivergence. So not only do I need to work against that, but now I need to get all the other neurodivergent people to work against it too?
We will work when our brains are ready to work. What becomes evident is almost a parody: the length of time it takes a neurotypical person to complete a task versus a neurodivergent person. In old roles, I'd go to my office thinking, "How am I going to sit in front of this computer for eight hours and look busy?" The reality was I'd finish everything on my plate in two hours, and then look around thinking, "Can I go home, or do I have to sit here for six hours waiting for something else to pop up?"
If a business wants to challenge its conventions, it needs to ask: What does our standard frame of reference look like when building structures of work? Is it wrong for people not to work 9-to-5, Monday to Friday? Is it okay if staff work from 3 PM to 10 PM? Is it cool for staff to go home when they've finished their work for the day, even if there are six hours left?
We're still measuring productivity by how much stuff you can do in 40 hours. I could do a week's worth of work in 10 hours and sleep for the rest of the week, but I'd still be judged as the "lazy worker" who is sleeping.
Redefining Productivity & Pattern Recognition
Brad Eather (24:29)
I feel the same way with my workâyou go through periods of procrastination, but if there's a deadline, I will meet it. If it's a task I haven't done before, I procrastinate. But if it's a repeated task, I can flick myself into a flow state pretty easily. If we're not measuring productivity in a 40-hour work week, how do we redefine what productivity means?
Myke Ireland (25:27)
Productivity is outcome-basedâit's always been outcome-based. But working weeks are set up around the factory cycle, where productivity was based on bulk output over time. You're employed under the condition that you must be present for 40 hours a week, so presence becomes the visibility checklist for productivity.
Look at sales: "Can I see your call log? How many calls have you made?" That's how they measure it, but productivity should be measured by how many sales were made. Regardless of whether I worked 40 hours or three hours, if I hit the sales target, the objective is complete.
That applies to almost anything in a workforceâother than jobs where you must be tactile and present (like an installer in the AV industry). For design or strategic roles, we have to measure people on what needs to be produced and when. How you produce it, the time it takes, and the hours you use should be up to you.
We're in a weird space where companies claim, "We're outcome-based, we don't care how you get there," until you work from home three days a week and they ask, "Why aren't you in the office?" It sounds like a factoryâneeding to be at the conveyor belt for eight hours to prove you're working. Just look at what was delivered. If we shift that thinking, we'll realize productivity is actually okay; we've just been looking at it through the wrong lens.
Brad Eather (27:42)
In outcome-based projects, people constantly underestimate how long something will take. In the AV industry, project timelines can extend to three, four, or five years, yet average sales tenures are under 18 months because of pressure to close deals quickly. Neurodivergent people see that disconnect clearly, whereas managers often see things differently.
Myke Ireland (28:44)
Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcomeâit's a real issue. In the AV industry, short turnover of sales staff is rampant. People get 12 months to prove themselves; if they don't deliver, they're gone. But the sales cycle on major technology upgrades for universities or enterprise can take two to three yearsâupgrades happen every five to seven years. You can't put a 12-month metric on someone and be surprised by high turnover.
The greatest gift neurodivergent staff bringâespecially as leadersâis pattern recognition. Pattern recognition is one of our strongest skills, yet we're rarely empowered to use it because we spot things that are going to go wrong long before they happen.
We're good at threat detection and scanning the environment, but nobody likes "Mr. Negative." If someone brings a bad idea, a neurodivergent person will say, "That's a crap idea, and here are three reasons why." The feedback they receive is that they are being negative, judgmental, and dismissive. Then 12 months pass, the project fails, and the person is let goâbut no credit goes back to the neurodivergent person who called it out initially.
We need to understand that the gifts of neurodivergent thinking aren't familiar to the neurotypical mind. They might come across as blunt, rude, or dismissive, but if they turn out to be correct, let's learn from that and adjust the framework. Recognize that you have someone on your team who acts like radar: they are honest and won't sugarcoat things. If you want things filtered, you act as the filter.
Don't expect a neurodivergent person to turn their back on who they are just to fit a vague mold of "professionalism." We need to replace the "one-size-fits-all plus accommodations off to the side" model and rebuild what work looks like in modern times.
Efficiency, Meetings, and Creativity
Brad Eather (32:16)
In a previous episode, guest Christopher Sellers talked about workplace innovation and creativity. For a creative, the solution to a problem might be immediateâyou could solve it in a 30-minute meeting rather than spending two weeks nutting it out. People assume things must take time to reach the correct answer, rather than trusting someone who sees the whole path clearly. Have you experienced that frustration?
Myke Ireland (33:58)
That is the undertone of the neurodivergent employee, especially in leadership. Meetings are the prime example. In management meetings, we'd sit there for three hours. Really, we could just rattle off what's been done, what needs doing, or current problems.
If none of it is relevant to me, I want to say: "Cool, I'm leaving. You guys can stay for another three hours, but I've done my bit." People think you're not showing respect by leaving, but I'm showing the utmost respect by not sitting there pretending to be interested.
Don't make us endure meetings for the sake of lip service or visual presence. The rule should be: If you cannot contribute or have nothing to gain, you are permitted to leave and read the notes later. Sitting in a meeting for two hours just to deliver a 15-minute update is doing things the wrong way.
A neurodivergent person views things macro-wise through pattern recognition until they enter hyper-focus, where they become extremely micro. That macro view means we see things comprehensively. When we point out a flaw, instead of labeling it as negative, we should champion alternative ways of thinking and let people accommodate the needs of their brains.
Brad Eather (36:35)
Is there a direct relationship between neurodivergence and creativity?
Myke Ireland (36:45)
100%. Look at autism (I'm Level 1 autism, previously classified as Asperger's). For people heavily impacted by autismâparticularly nonverbal individualsâtheir ability to create becomes their primary voice because they can't express inner thoughts verbally. Inability to create often leads to frustration or outbursts.
Their creative ability is unbridled by conventional thinking. Often, society views that level of creation as "too radical" or "too much change." But we should trust alternative thinking that's based on fact and evidence.
I can tell you with 100% certainty: a neurodivergent individual never puts forth an idea publicly unless they have thoroughly tested it. We fear embarrassment and rejection, so by the time an idea is presented to you, it has been pressure-tested to the nth degree. All that's left is to try it in the real world. We aren't platforming that level of creativity enough because of fear that it won't fit the factory model.
The AI Renaissance for Neurodivergent Thinkers
Brad Eather (39:17)
How do you think AI is enabling these kinds of minds?
Myke Ireland (39:25)
Most people in the AI sphere agree that the neurodivergent mind is about to have a renaissance on the back of AI. Our biggest hurdle is executive functionâwhich you ironically need to be an executive!
We naturally struggle with taking an overwhelming abundance of new ideas and prioritizing them into something presentable. AI allows us to step back, organize tasks, or outsource executive function processes that we normally struggle to manage.
In the AI entrepreneur sphere, people who couldn't fit the corporate mold now have tools to build their own systems. Over the next four to five years, we're going to see an explosion of neurodivergent people thriving independently.
AI tools are like robotsâthey're happy to be communicated with directly without social fluff. Humans need context, timing, and emotional framing; AI just takes the task and runs with it. If businesses marry neurodivergent individuals with AI integration, it's going to work out extremely well.
Defining Creativity & Closing
Brad Eather (41:59)
To wrap up, what is your definition of creativity?
Myke Ireland (42:10)
It's such a hard thing to put into perspective. For me, creativity is the ability to bring into the physical world a diluted version of the most ecstatic thoughts I've had in my metacognitive world. It's distilling something out of all the noise and bringing it into the physical world so that it serves a purpose.
I don't care what the purpose isâwhether it's a DIY renovation task at home or a new workflow at work that helps people get things doneâas long as it serves a purpose, it's a success. It is the materialization of the metacognitive into something that serves a real-world purpose.
Brad Eather (43:23)
That's an awesome answer, mate. Thanks for joining us on the Creative Business Podcast, Myke. For everyone out there, if you enjoyed the conversation, make sure to subscribe to help us grow. Until next time, stay creative
